Tony Jones Interview: Answering the "Born Again" Question

all I gotta say is, 32:18…pit stains. try some anti-perspirant ya hippie.

Good stuff, I love the “pisseth against the wall” reference.

I loved this…”some squishy or some untidy language.”

For the “uninitiated,” the “pisseth against the wall” reference was inspired by this wonderful display of fundamentalism:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SDxcyqeRc-4

I actually thought it was a decent interview from both sides, like the cameraman said, I also expected more disagreement. Perhaps there is something to be said for the ease at which we disagree harshly while we are creating our online identities and personas.

I think it a little unfair to term me as an outspoken critic of Tony- I love Tony (in a completely Biblical and Phileo way) and find him to be personable and a guy I would tip a Guinness with in my pre-pastoral leadership days.

This being said, I believe that this quote which is hailed by the Emergent crowd as being beautiful is indeed very sad, which is why I said I am sorry to Tony. Jesus said that you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. It seems clear that Tony and other Emergers struggle, like Pilate with the question “What is Truth” The question we all need to struggle with is Who is truth? ( Jesus said I AM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE) and can we trust what He has testified to about Himself in His Word? If you dont know the Truth (Jesus) the Truth cannot set you free from a continual process of doubting if ‘this whole thing is a crock’. I truly do pray that sooner than later that the conversation Emergent is having will begin with faith in Christ, and end at the same place.

pastorboy… isn’t that exactly where this ended? a daily walk in faith that somehow pulls us out of the depths? i fully resonate with the daily walking/wandering/crawling/staggering/collapsing/walking that Tony describes. I have faith today that in my unbelief tomorrow God is strong enough to survive without me.

David,
“I have faith today that in my unbelief tomorrow God is strong enough to survive without me.”

What does that even mean, and what does it have to do with knowing the TRUTH?

I’m not sure what it means, but it is life as i have known it so far. i trust that truth can take care of itself. all i know is that the days when everything creates a picture of creation are beautiful days.

I wish he expounded on his eggs being scrambled. That sounded interesting…

David,
I am sorry to hear that you find the daily walk so difficult. Is life hard at times? Sure but we have to remember some very important truths about being born again: God justifies believers when they believe and simultaneously makes them a new creation, a declaration by a Judge in heaven and a creative act by the Creator. Everything changes (not “Everything Must Change”- a pun)about that person. In fact, morally speaking, the “new man” is a greater miracle of creation than the original creation. Eph 4:22-26 puts this wonderfully for the believer. It is God who supplies the faith, who creates the new man. We must believe and He does the rest. What great joy that should bring us each and every moment, to know that our citizenship is in heaven, that the promises of God are true, and yet sadness nips at the edges, not over something that did not happen the way we wanted or expected but at the thought of those who have not been made new and will spend an eternity in eternal torment if not “made new.” Keep your eye on the prize, as Paul said in Phil 3:13 my friend. All that’s unredeemed on this earth is our bodies and then we will be totally set free in our physical death as Paul agonized in Romans 7. As Paul wrote in Titus 3, “but when the kindness of God appeared, HE SAVED US!” Praise God for that.

I wish he expounded on his eggs being scrambled. That sounded interesting… And I agree that it’s quite easy to get people upset online, but when we’re in person, we have much more productive dialogs. For example, I’ll post this video on facebook and probably lose 10 “friends” by the end of the day.

This sounds to me like a conversation between a fish and bird about the relative merits of water and air. For the faithful of either camp it proves the “truth” that the other is wrong. It brings to mind Paul’s comments on food – particularly Romans 14:4 “Who are you to criticise someone elses servant?” It’s about God, guys, who despite our best attempts is still, as CS Lewis put it, “not a tame Lion.”

I thought Tony was a champion of Women’s rights?!

Apparently not…

http://thedowngrade2007.blogspot.com/2008/03/i-am-proud-of-my-wife.html

John,

You have exhibited a propensity for posting things on the Internet without people’s permission. Posting the video of Tony is one thing, posting your wife’s email? Well, that seems like you’re playing with fire there, my friend ;-)

Steve, The video was recorded and posted with Tony’s knowledge. I told him as we were walking out of Emergent’s national headquarters that I would post it so he could preview it in San Diego, as he had to prepare voice overs or comments for the produced version.

One of the things that strikes me in watching this video comes not from the parts that will be edited down to accompany the book curriculum, but from the way Tony and John interact on a personal level. They certainly have some theological disagreement, but in their conversation before and after the interview (as well as in the manner in which they discussed their disagreement during the interview) they did not come across as enemies. I think it illustrates one of the limitations of the written medium through blog posts and discussion boards. Disagreement can easily (and often does) get interpreted as attacking or angry. They were both passionate about their convictions, but neither seemed angry and neither seemed threatened or attacked by the position of the other.

The content was great, but it isn’t really much that I haven’t heard before. I think, however, we can learn as much or more from they way they went about the conversation.

I agree. As I said, Tony is an extremely personable guy and I liked having the conversation with him even though I disagree with him. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

I do want to have a Reformed Emergent cohort down here…Emergents, Arminians, Catholics, Lutherans will all be free and encouraged to come and discuss their views. What do you think?

Pastorboy,

What would your goal be in having a ‘Reformed Emergent’ cohort.

Shane

Thanks John and Tony for doing this. you guys are great examples of how to converse and disagree, but to still love and respect the other.

As a side note, the video hasn’t been playing today. anybody else have that problem? Any idea how we can fix it or find it somewhere else?

#19 Shane, My purpose? very simple. I believe that the cohort engaging in theological discussion would be well served by starting and ending with the truth found only in Christ, and that we could sharpen one another if we had Christ-centered and Bible-centered discussions. I agree that the church must have a greater impact on the world, but I don’t think that comes from being syncrenistic.

#20 Nick, the reason is that Tony did not remember giving me permission to post this and he wrote me an e-mail ‘asking’ me to take it down. I did, but I am pretty sure (with 589 views before I took it down) that someone out there has copies online, sorta like a Rob Bell video.

“All the evidence in the world does not prove God.”

Goodness, I have a Book I believe to be God’s preserved Word… chock full of TRUTH. Oooops, I guess you’d have to actually believe the words on the pages to have your proof. Mmmmm, very sadly that’s a problem for just about all so-called Christianity today.

Amen Paul!

Paul, Pastorboy, et al,

Tony believes the truth in the Bible. I think the problem here is this: You want him to hold his beliefs with the same certainty which you claim to have. But Tony (and others in Emergent, myself included) hold our beliefs differently, with humility, with a “proper confidence,” as Leslie Newbigin describes it. And, if you really stop to think about it, this way of believing is more intellectually honest than your claim of certainty, because doubt is a very real part of faith.

“Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Hebrews 11:1

You want to focus on the ASSURANCE, and you see assurance as BEING SURE (certainty). But I see the words HOPED FOR and CONVICTION and NOT SEEN, and those are the words that describe the reality of my faith on a day-to-day basis. Which is why Tony’s comments in this interview resonated with me, personally. Please don’t tear me (or Tony or anyone else) down, because I’m seeking to be faithful to Christ, just as you are.

BTW, Two quick apologies/clarifications:

1) I posted this before I found out that Tony had not given his permission for the video to be posted in the first place. So my apologies to Tony, and my thanks to John Chisham for now removing the video at Tony’s request.

2) I think the title of this blog post (and the excerpt from the transcript that I snipped out of context) ended up being unintentionally misleading. I would contend that Tony is NOT saying in the interview that he is “born again” every day. If you read the full transcript, he shares his “personal testimony” (which I’ve heard Tony share on other occasions) of when he was “born again” as a teenager at church camp. That is then followed up by the question I posted (“when did I take on the Lordship of Jesus Christ?”) to which Tony answers: every day.

Tony’s answer to the “born again” question was wonderful. I love it!

The video above is not working. I found the video and posted it on my site.

#25 I removed it even though I believe Tony gave permission (which is the only reason I posted it). I just wonder what the reason is he does not want the full unedited version posted? I think it is a great dialogue!

#26 Mike, Why do you love it? Uncertainty is not a spiritual gift. We can know Truth, and we can know The Truth; Faith is about being CERTAIN of what we cannot see, not wondering if this whole thing is a ‘crock’. Lord, I believe- Help my unbelief!

John (Pastorboy #27),

Did you read my #24 comment? I believe you are interpreting Hebrews 11:1 through a modernistic lens. You’re emphasizing the wrong thing (“assurance” or, as you read it, “certainty”). To put it another way: The idea of “certainty” that you are espousing is not biblical. It’s a hold-over from the Enlightenment, and I’m just waiting for you to deal with that in some way, which I don’t think you’ve adequately done yet in this discussion. I mean, what is your response to that (besides, “there go the emergents slamming modernity again”)?

Actually, Steve, This verse says the same thing twice, much like the psalms and proverbs “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for” Assurance, put simply, is something we are sure of. When we sit on a chair, we are sure it will hold up under our weight. We do not know until we do it, and this is where faith comes in. We are sure enough to squat and sit. Faith is a god-given present assurance of a future reality. It is because we trust God and His Word implicitly for what it says, even though we cannot see it. It is the assurance that ‘God would provide a ram for sacrifice’ that allowed Abraham to bind Isaac to the altar. “The conviction of things not seen” This does not describe a continual questioning, but a settled trust in what God says. Faith does not describe one who is unsettled in his beliefs, wondering if the whole thing is a crock, Faith describes one who has confidence and conviction in the unseen promises of God. It is not based on empirical evidence that we can see and point to, but on divine assurance, which is a gift from God.

Faith is being able to trust in God’s Word when He says that we can know truth, and that the Truth will set them free. We do not have to fumble around in uncertainty when it comes to spiritual things, because we can know God, in what He has revealed about Himself, even those things that He has revealed that we cannot see.

John (Pastor boy #29),

Well said! In addition, I believe TRUST is the opposite of DOUBT, so I don’t understand Steve K. #24 when he says “doubt is a very real part of faith.” To assuredly know Christ, have complete trust and faith in Him, the Bible is very clear: just read the book of I John. Assurance and confidence in Christ is part of the evidence for one’s faith in Christ. There is absolutely NO DOUBT in ASSURANCE. In the worldly sense, yes, but in the spiritual, no!!!

“Those who believe they believe in God but without passion in the heart, without anguish of mind, without uncertainty, without doubt, and even at times without despair, believe only in the idea of God and not in God himself.” -Madeleine L’Engle

Madeline L’ Engle is not the inspired Word of God…sorry.

To check out a book review of TNC, go to http://newchristian.wordpress.com/2008/03/07/dispatch-1-pastorboy-speecheth

John (#29),

You’ve conveniently sidestepped my question about modernity and its affects on how you’re interpreting Hebrews 11:1. I’m still waiting for your response to that.

What we’re really talking about here is epistemology, right? This is well-worn territory in Emergent circles. You suggest that acknowledging any kind of doubt or lack of certainty is equivalent to “fumbling around,” but (as you can probably imagine) I don’t see it that way. In fact, Tony seemed pretty evangelistic in that interview with you, passionately trying to get you to see things from his POV.

How would you describe how you “know” Jesus (The Truth)?

I know Him by faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God.

I have no idea what you mean by modernity and all that, I just know what I read in the scripture.

I know God, because He has drawn me to Himself, revealed to me in the creation and in His word. In his word, I read the law that I must obey to be righteous, and it only makes me guilty. Before God, I am wicked and depraved, my heart is a heart of stone and it is not pleasing to God.

I read in His word that Jesus came to live a perfect life and then to die, paying the penalty for my sins by taking the wrath of God for my sins. I now have a choice: Do I trust that Jesus did this by faith for me, or do I reject the gift and go on trying to please God through my own efforts? Because of his drawing, and the faith he has given me, I respond by repenting of my sin (by his grace through faith, not of myself) and place my trust in Christ. Though I have not seen Him, I trust what I know of God in His creation, I trust His Word that He inspired, and I trust the witness of the Holy Spirit. So I know Jesus because I know God, I trust what God has said in His word, and I have the identifying fruit because of the presence of the Holy Spirit.

I have no idea if I have answered your question, but I will requote Hebrews: Without FAITH it is IMPOSSIBLE to please GOD.

John (#34),

Thanks for your reply. I think you’re using some circular reasoning here, but I understand why. I would suggest that you’re probably a naive realist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naive_realism

I, on the other hand, am probably best described as a critical realist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_realism

Modernity is the lens through which you are reading and interpreting Scripture. Until you understand that and grapple with that, I would say you’re deluding yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernity

I’d recommend “The Myth of Certainty” by Daniel Taylor as a good (safe) place to start in wrestling with this whole issue of epistemology. Others here would probably have other recommendations, as well.

You can continue to say you have certainty and quote Scripture until you’re blue in the face, but until you grapple with the lens through which you’re reading and interpreting those Scriptures, you’re not going to change my mind. And please don’t mistake my lack of certainty in my ABILITY to KNOW God with a lack of faith in God. I think that’s a key point you’re missing in this whole discussion.

Here we go again. Fish says, “Air is poisonous.” Bird says, “Water is suffocating.”

The issue is not HOW you are following but WHO you are following.

For both participants – I believe that unless you repent this will be a case of the Pharisee’s generosity. You will have received your reward in the back-patting of your true audience – your peers. Next time, give some thought to how your Father would feel about this family spat happening, let alone being broadcast.

Steve (#36),

I appreciate the exasperation you are expressing, believe me. Unfortunately I don’t think it’s as easy as getting both sides to agree that we are both following Jesus (the WHO, you are referring to).

While postmoderns are fine with acknowledging that John (and other modernists) are following Jesus, they don’t seem to be OK with giving us the same credit. Our faith is constantly called into question, and the reason is because of this misunderstanding of epistemology. So as tired of a conversation as seems to be (we’ve been around this topic so many times before), it is still the sticking point for many of our critics. And I’m just asking for John to consider the point, which I don’t think he’s really grappled with yet.

Thanks Steve K (and I hadn’t meant to confuse anyone with 2 Steve’s)

I was deep in composing my second note when you posted the one that appears before it – which I think shows the clarity and grace that I felt was lacking in the early discussions. (Though perhaps Wikipedia is not the ideal reference ;))

I have s sneaking suspicion that you do KNOW God. German does a good job of separating this. I think you mean that you are uncertain of your ability to “wisse” God (know facts about) but I’m sure you “kenne” Him (know a person).

So Tony dies daily because he doubts daily?

I would say the emergent folks are on their way out of christianity, one foot out and one foot in, but dont’ want to give up community or fellowship.

As far as epistemology is concerned…at least the emergents have got that far…and they understand that “faith” cannot be certain if it is arrived at through reason…because their rational process of historical hypothesis verification is inductive and logical induction cannot produce absolute certainty.

But I would contend “faith” (the way I am using the term) is certain.

Do any of you have something that is absolutely certain in life? For example, an absolute devotion to your children such that you are “absolutely certain” you will do what the relationship requires…no matter what.

That is faith.

It usually happens in Christian cultures with spouses or children, but it can be any cause that you are absolutely certain that you will not fail it…no matter what…even if it means dying for it.

It is no coincidence that our family practices (one might say “family values”) are such in a christian culture since Jesus is the only god who was on a mission… a cause worth dying for. It is no coincidence that the highest relation in a christian culture is one of total devotion. That is faith. That is the way we use the word in ordinary language. Faith is devotion to someone or something finite. Sin is betrayal of that cause…not just failing at it…but betraying it.

There are some who are “born-again” and rememeber it quite clearly. Jesus visits them and transforms them (at least they think its Jesus) the same way Athena visits Telemakhos in the Odyssey. For the Greeks…Athena was the god that transformed us.

Who cares what you call it…the question is…were you transformed or not…did you get a new identiy…a new life…a whole new world…a new cause…a new devotion…a new determination…with new practices…or not.

If you did then we say you were visited by a god, and a “god” inspired (literally in-spirited) you.

You emergents are well on your way to overcoming historicist christianity. At least you see the shortcomings of the “modern” epistemology of the apologists and “objective” historical scientists.

I suggest reading Kierkegaard’s CUP.

Steve K says “Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” Hebrews 11:1 You want to focus on the ASSURANCE, and you see assurance as BEING SURE (certainty). But I see the words HOPED FOR and CONVICTION and NOT SEEN, and those are the words that describe the reality of my faith on a day-to-day basis.”

I would hope that you are not stupid, but only ignorant, for which there is a cure—2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You study and figure out what that ‘rightly dividing’ means and you will finally be on your way in showing yourself as an approved workman unto God. And, it is not by ‘seeing’ certain parts of only one verse that ‘you’ see. Your excessive modesty does not impress while your failure to simply believe the words on the page astonishes.

exactly one week and everyone still refuses to address those god-awful pit stains. Talk about not BEING SURE! rimshot

I know, crappy joke.

#41
Clearly, Tony was under heavy conviction, feeling the flames lapping at his feet…

For those interested, I interviewed Tony for Precipice Magazine, here:
http://www.precipicemagazine.com/tony-jones-interview1.html

Parts 2 and 3 can be accessed from first segment of the interview.

I doubt anyone comes to this page anymore and maybe I have missed something….but I read the whole transcript verses what was above and it is pretty edited above. Why not have the full interview out there instead of hidding it and only showing the edited one?

“Doubt is not the opposite of faith; it is one element of faith.” – Paul Tillich

“Lord, I believe. Help thou my unbelief.”

Faith is not certainty at all times. Faith is continually remembering to “be still and know that I am God.” Sanctification is the Spirit working tirelessly to perfect us. Two steps forward, three steps back, five steps forward, nine steps back. Perhaps there are folks who are 100% sure 100% of the time. But I doubt very seriously that a person who can say, “this is the point where I was born again and this is the point where I stopped doubting forever” is being very honest with themselves. Maybe they are. If so, congratulations! I look forward to seeing the Spirit’s work completed in me one day as well. But unfortunately for me (or maybe fortunately…there is room for discussion there), I am far closer to Peter, walking in water, then looking around and being afraid and then beginning to sink, and then reaching up (again and again) to be saved once again from myself by Jesus.

Hey Tom (#44),

There’s no cover-up here. I just edited the transcript to highlight (in a coherent way) the bit that I found most interesting. The complete transcript was posted on the Apprising “Ministries” website (apprising.org). It may (or may not) still be there.

Pastorboy (#32)

Are you suggesting that God doesn’t inspire us still today? God very possibly could have inspired the words of Madeleine L’Engle. God works and speaks in amazing ways. Of course, we have to be open to listening to and struggling with those words…in the same way that we listen to and struggle with the words of Scripture.