The Wounded Image Of God

Wow. This is powerful. Funny…I was reading the chapter in Rohr’s book on Simplicity about patriarchy just this morning. It’s good stuff.

that’s really powerful, thank you so much for sharing that Jeromy. in an emerging women’s conversation a couple years ago a woman said something that I thought was so profound. She grew up in a church system that didn’t recognize women in leadership but her family was always supportive of her that she could do whatever she put her mind and heart to. Because of this strange contradiction she said she often wished God was more like her dad. I know the feeling and know so many other women who share that sentiment…instead of using God as a “father figure model” they’d rather God use their father as a model. (the God presented them in their oppressive systems)

Thank you for recognizing that woman are able to perform ministries where they can share the gifts God has given them.

Makeesha, I like that. Indeed, for some, their own father is a better image than the oppressive image of God they have inherited. Thanks for sharing that.

Makeesha, how strange that you said that. I was going to post along those lines earlier, but my comment wouldn’t post. I think it’s kind of funny that even though I was raised by souther baptist missionary parents (me and my two sisters) we were all brought up to be confident in God’s ability to do ANYTHING through us. Our sex never seemed to matter. My parents never laughed when I told them I wanted to go to West Point when I was 11, or when I was 10 and told them I wanted to be president. They raised us to be women who are and insult to many churches today. MY SOUTHERN BAPTIST PARENTS! Little girls can do anything, but once we are women (or perhaps married) our time is over?!? I was so confused leaving home (and then later a college ministry that allowed us to use our gifts) and enter the “church” in adulthood. Why don’t they just tell the 8 year old girl in sunday school that she better know her place? Why wait? I don’t know if I’m making any sense, so I’ll end for now. Thanks for listening.

I am new to this communication means, but this piece so moved me I had to respond. This is the second time in two days your writing Jeromy has moved me to tears. The first were of joy at the possibilities outlined so poetically in “remerging”. The second, reading this piece, touching as you discovered wounds we don’t even know we carry, they have been buried for so long. Thank you and Peace.

Terri, one other thing, I process a lot of my thoughts more regularly at A Mending Shift

Terri, my first comment didn’t take. But, thank you for sharing your kind words. To be honest I am at a loss of words, except maybe to say I am glad my recalling that morning blessed you. I really wish you could have been there. Grace to you.

Jeromy,

As a woman leader in a church which identifies itself with the emerging/emergent movement, “Thank you.” Your words were a balm to a wound on my soul that is much deeper than I recognized. They gave me permission to let my defenses down for a moment and relax in a safe place…and I didn’t even realize the defenses were there! My church, obviously, has accepted idea that women can lead, but the words of our lead pastor on the subject were “I’m not sure what I think, but I would rather err on the side of giving someone the freedom to be all God has called him OR her to be rather than limiting one of God’s children.” I didn’t realize it at the time, but even that apparent recognition of God’s call on my life caused a wound because it was so filled with disclaimers rather than a celebration of how God has gifted our leaders. Since then I’ve been told, “You are far and away our best teacher, but you can’t teach too often because men won’t follow a woman,” “God has so blessed the WOMEN of our church by sending you,” and other similar comments by my co-leaders. Sometimes it makes me so sad I can hardly face them. I don’t want to be a lead pastor. I don’t care about being in the limelight. I just want to help those who want to grow, to grow. It makes me so discouraged to know that the enemy has got such a foothold even in a great church like mine that sometimes I just want to give up. But, I haven’t figured out a way that God will let me give up, so here I am. So, thank you, from the bottom of my bruised, but Jesus filled heart.

Alicia (that’s my sister’s name, only spelled differently), thank you for sharing your story. I never realized how painful our disclaimers-for-freedom are. The subtle wounds from subtle words…that spoke deeply to me.

this is an interesting posting. My girlfriend and I have been having a recurring theme in our conversations as to where women fit in the scheme of the Church. To be honest I am a ‘recovering Chauvanist’ meaning I am relearning through my Darling that women do indeed have a vioce in the church and that voice should be strongly encouraged. Sadly too many men (in my experience) tend to read the second half of Eph 5 to the tune of the old Rolling Stones” Under My Thumb” and never realize that the greater burden lies upon us as males, reading the first half of Eph 5. Just a thought

From a different tradition, here’s an article, “Devout Women Say No to their Second-Class Religious Status” by Leora Tanenbaum, printed in Tikkun Magazine. The author describes how she has navigated her tradition, Orthodox Judaism, with her commitment to ritual and to gender equality in leadership.

http://www.tikkun.org/article.php/mar09_tanenbaum

Thank you for this post, and for participating in healing these gendered wounds.

Thank you. After just being fired this week from the 2nd church that didn’t think I should or could offer what I do as a woman, I deeply appreciate the acknowledgment. Even as I look through job listings that are for “males only,” it is helpful to know that someone realizes what women have to offer.

Thanks Jeromy. What you say is utterly true. I have been priveledged to use my own church planting missionary and teaching gifts in a leadership role for 25 years, but it has been exceedingly difficult. It is really important for you not emerge as the hero of this conversation, (which really could happen) but for women to emerge as heroes as they find places to tell their stories. In many cases, it is women themselves who are so enculturated into a certain way of being woman that their imaginations stop short of the possiblities God has for them.
The times are slowly changing. I wrote a book with a male co:author recently, and my name is intentionally first on the cover. It was difficult finding good female endorsers. At a recent naatioanl meeting of peers, I was chosen as a recipient of one of only a few awards (but there were 250 people..only 3 women present)
These affirmations are bittersweet because they are the exception. So thank you for addressing this topic-we are, of course, blessed to be a blessing.
Linda Bergquist

Good words, Linda. Thanks, and you’re welcome.

Thanks a lot for this post. It really got me thinking. At the risk of making some enemies here, I am wondering how we reconcile this with the challenging but overwhelming evidence that we are involved in a faith that is actually pretty patriarchal? As an adult convert who came to the faith at age 37 – an accomplished VP for a PR firm – I was not thrilled to become a Christian or to learn about many of the basic tenets of the faith that would require me to adapt myself to it. And yet, as I did (and do), I have grown and learned a lot about myself. Are there injustices and misuse of authority? Of course – in the church and everywhere else. But, do I feel comfortable rewriting things to appease my view of equality? I’m not sure I get to do that. In fact, knowing myself, I wouldn’t stop there. I’d continue to tweak this faith and recast it until it was exactly what I wanted it to be. I don’t have that kind of authority, nor do I want to.

Hi Joan, thank you for sharing your important view and thoughts on this. For me and others who share more of an egalitarian view/understanding of scripture, I believe God’s heart is that in Christ there is neither male or female, that we are both made in the image of God, that God’s gifting is giving equally to both, and that together we create a more balanced and healthy view of God and leadership. But I also know that not everyone holds this view.

You said: “But, do I feel comfortable rewriting things to appease my view of equality?” The assumption is that things have not been rewritten (or perhaps better put, reinterpreted) to appease a male-based model that is prevalent today in most church cultures. But I hope, at the very lease, this might cause you to look deeper into this issue, as it is a very important issue.

Peace, Jeromy.

Thanks for the thoughts and the comments, people. I believe a better day is coming, although it is sad that our society is dragging the church behind it on this issue. It makes me think of my parents, both of whom are uncomfortable with the idea of a woman pastoring them. Their generation and culture has blinded them to the many gifts women can offer as leaders, but please be patient with those like them. They are slowly coming around with every example of strong female leadership chipping away at their status quo.

Hi Jeromy: Thanks for your reply. Do you think the equality will go in both directions (i.e. more men in the nursery/children’s ministry/hospitality ministries, etc.) thereby freeing up women to step into these roles without being encumbered by traditional expectations? That did not happen in many business circles over the past 20 years leaving many women with the new opportunities while retaining many of the more traditional responsibilities (remember the commercial “I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan and never let you forget your a man – cause I’m a woman…)

This “do it all” womanhood resulted in an exhausting (and frequently failed) attempt to “have it all” that most men did not seem equally compelled to achieve in the other direction.

I think that is for every man and woman to figure out individually for themselves. From what I heard and hear, most woman simply want to be valued, respected, and heard.

Do some want it all? Much like men, I am sure some do. But the women with the gift of pastoring, speaking and leadership are probably not in the nursery or hospitality ministries to begin with.

If some men have the gift of hospitality, then they should be doing that. If others have the gift of caring for children, then they too should be doing that. A person’s gender should not qualify them or disqualify them for any particular ministry. If they are so gifted and created by their maker to do it, then let them do it to the fullness of their passion and abilities.

Please don’t read into my comment that men and woman don’t have differences…they do. But when it comes to the Kingdom, I think we have everything to lose when we stomp out and stifle a woman’s God given gift. We all suffer. We all lose. The entire body is wounded.

As I read this blog, I thought, “yes, I’ve been there—and I’ve felt that deep hurt that these women describe”. I went to a conservative seminary 20 years ago and I can tell many stories of mean attitudes and vicious behavior from Christian ministers, professors, and fellow students. It would have been easy to drown in that pain. But over time I learned the forgiveness that Jesus talks about, even though those who did the meanness never regretted their behavior and attitudes. I learned that ministering in Jesus’ name to God’s children is not confined to the four walls of a church building. Being a disciple of Jesus does not depend on approval from a church that denigrates me because of my gender. Because of the hurt that I experienced, I am capable of expressing a great deal more compassion toward others who are hurting than I would have if I had not experienced such rejection. Life is not fair, but my life is considerably better than 99% of God’s other children on this planet. God empowers us to take the situations that we are in and make them better. Since my church is not willing to use my gifts, I find other ways to bring the “realm of God” into my world. My avocation is fighting poverty in the Southern Appalachian region where I live. My church may not allow me to “preach”, but I speak to all sorts of groups about a subject that Jesus talked a lot about, too. I minister among people who, according to the gospels, are important to Jesus. I in no way want to minimize or undermine the depth of pain that the patriarchal practices of the church has caused. This sexism is something we definitely should fix as we are in situations where it can be addressed. But, as individuals who have been deeply hurt, I hope we can find ways to use that pain to transform us into creative, compassionate ministers in whatever world we find ourselves in.

Thank you for this post and the ensuing conversation. This is something that I often find myself thinking about this time of year. A former neighbor and friend of mine is Greek Orthadox. Many years ago, she brought me a red egg for Easter and told me the story celebrated in the eastern Christian traditions of Mary Magdalene and Caesar Tiberius. Eastern traditions see Mary M. as a wealthy woman (a widow) who was a leader in the early church and tell of her journey after Jesus’s resurrection to Caesar. She present with an egg and as she told him “Jesus lives!” the egg turned from white to red.
A far cry from a prostitute.
Is this another way westren traditions have robbed us of our heritage of strong women leaders?

Sherry, I think you are on to something…beautifully put.

Jenny, it is those types of conversations and friendships with the other traditions that will help shape us. I had never heard that before. Like you said, a far cry from the “prostitute” version we carry around of Mary M

Jeromy, thank you for this post. Ironically, one of the things necessary for women to be heard in the
church is brothers willing to listen, and encourage us to speak.

I do want to respond to the comments at #19 & 20

Joan asked whether more men would be willing to step into such roles as nursery & hospitality thereby freeing women to use their speaking and leadership gifts, to which you replied:

“women with the gift of pastoring, speaking and leadership are probably not in the nursery or hospitality ministries to begin with. ”

The truth is, this has been the very experience of many women, particularly in congregations where a strict gender division is in place. When we step forward to serve, we are steered to the nursery or the kitchen, and because our desire to serve God is genuine, we go where we are “needed.”

Sometimes we find that we enjoy serving in these areas, and those minstries can and do benefit from having people with leadership or pastoral gifts working in them. But it’s not always a good fit, and being pigeonholed is profoundly discouraging.

Wonder, thank you for clarifying my words. That is what I meant to say.

Yes, women are steered towards the Kitchen and the Nursery. I certainly was.

That is a fact to which I say, SO WHAT? When that has happens to me I just smile and say with all the confidence that the Lord has given me, “No. I don’t do Kitchen or Nursery. I do computers, electronics, and IT.”

Do not be shy about saying where your giftings are. Do not apologize. Do not backpedal. And do not be offended. Just state what it is that you do, then go about them joyfully!

I understand the truth – that women have often been overlooked in all walks of life. I understand that because I’ve been a one for 49 years. :-) But I don’t listen or acknowledge that, and I don’t rail against it. I just go about using my giftings. I have faith that if the Lord puts me on a course of action, he won’t let anyone take that away from me – Head Pastors included. He will open ears and eyes.

DISCLAIMER: Please recognize and understand that I have nothing but love for each and every one of you. But perhaps it’s time to stop whining and start doing. :)

I’m against prejudice in every form. But it won’t stop while we allow it to have power over us. Do not recognize it. If you are denied an opportunity, ON TO THE NEXT ONE WITH GUSTO knocking the dust from your shoes!!! :) If you want to use your gifts, the Lord will give you the opportunity to do so.

I love you all, male and female alike. May the Lord bless you all abundantly!

In Genesis 1we learn that God said “Let us make man in Our image, in Our likeness…So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.” Thus woman and men have equal value. But God also gives gender specific rolls, Genesis 2:18 states “The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” The roles that God gives to His creation are not roles of power but of service. We are to reflect the image of God; the Triune God is in perfect unity and equality, but there are three distinct roles. One role is not of greater value or importance, they are different, but equal, just like men and women are equal, but have different roles of service.

We reflect God best when we live in unity within our diversity and when we like the Son obey the Father. God clearly states in 1 Tim 3:2 that church leaders are men. The Greek word aner is gender specific and always refers to a man, not mankind.

At the fall the role of the woman was distorted, instead of embracing her God given role of complementarism she was duped into believing that sameness is equality. God says to test the Spirit, if a woman thinks she is being called to lead a church, she should test that call to Scripture; God clearly speaks on that subject.

Scripture clearly teaches that the body of Christ has many parts, and all are important. God also said we were created to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do; and God said that the job of overseer was reserved for men.

Lisa, I think the simplicity of the statement “God clearly speaks on that subject” is immediately found wanting by the myriad of interpretations that are brought to God’s words in Scripture.

But here’s the question I would really like to challenge you to consider: Why does the complimentarian view you see so “clearly” in Scripture not result in “separate but equal” roles in the church, but rather results in women being subjugated to lesser roles (with lesser responsibility/authority/power) to that of men? That’s the real issue being discussed here.

Do you see Jesus Christ’s role as a lesser role than that of the Fathers? Jesus was in submission to the Father, John 6:38 states “For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of Him who sent me.”

I do not see Jesus’ act of submission as one of being “subjugated to a lesser role”, but lovingly embracing His unique role. Jesus is truly God and equal in attributes to God the Father, but they have different functions. I do not see my role as a woman as being lesser than a man’s role, just different in function. The scriptures are not ambiguous about who can be an overseer 1 Timothy 3:2”An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable…” The word for husband (ἀνήρ [aner /an•ayr/] ) is gender specific in the Greek.

Your response shows you view the roles of being one of power; I view my role as one of service to God. I serve Him, through His power, for His glory. I figure if Jesus stooped to wash feet, should I not be willing to serve Him wherever He gives me the privilege to serve? Jesus said “I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.” John 17:4, I pray that at the end of my life I have brought Him glory by completing the work He has given me to do; the real issue, not one of human power or authority, but acquiescing to God’s authority.

Lisa, were God and Jesus one and the same? In my understanding of Divinity (limited as I admit it is), one cannot be “below” the other.

But that’s not really my question. I’m not interested in arguing about submission and servanthood. Jesus is a perfect example for us in those regards, I completely agree with you about that. My real question is: Do you believe the New Testament descriptions for church polity apply in all cultures for all times? I think that’s where you’ll lose me and a lot of others.

And I’m wondering if you realize how women have really been denigrated in church settings, based on an albeit-sincere reading of a few passages of Scripture. It doesn’t sound like this has happened to you, so thank God for that, but there are many women who God has gifted for leadership who have not been treated with such grace and respect.

I’m all about mutual submission, as the Bible teaches, both male and female created in the image of God, as the Bible teaches, but I’m realistic enough to recognize that in church settings this has become an issue of power—and men (like me) not wanting to give it up.

Hi Lisa! Yes you are correct in your quotations of the Bible, and I believe that the Bible is the ineffable Word of God. However I will very gently and kindly assert that my opinion is different from yours in this matter because I view the the Pauline Epistles as being specific words for a specific Church at very specific times in history. I also assert that these writings must be taken in the context of the ‘big picture’.

1 Timothy is a letter from Paul to the church in Ephesus bequeathing to Timothy Paul’s authority at that place. It is written specifically to assign Timothy the task of confronting the false teachings going on at the church.

“5 The aim of our charge is love  that issues from a pure heart and  a good conscience and  a sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by  swerving from these, have wandered away into  vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law,  without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions. “

Most scholars believe that this particular letter was written to counteract the pagan and gnostic teachings of the area at the time. The people of this new church were gentile converts. Many of the women to whom that passage is addressed were former pagan priestesses who were ‘favored instruments of revelation’ in the gnostic practice. These prophetesses used to run the temple either prophesying or acting as temple prostitutes. Even their gods took a feminine form. They did not want to be quiet and listen, they wanted to lead the rites they way they always used to do. However they did not yet have the knowledge of the teachings of Christ in order to do so. It would be hard to teach new converts the way of Jesus if the former pagan priestesses wouldn’t humble themselves and become teachable.

We also know from other scriptures that Paul permitted women to prophesy in the temple, and to be deaconesses. One such scripture to back up that assertional is 1 Corinthians 11:4-5:

“4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife  who prays or prophesies  with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.”

I really like the fact that women prophesy is mentioned only to chastize them in order to make sure that their heads are covered, because that seems to imply that women prophesying in the temple was a very common thing. It is also interesting to note that the shaven head business is speaking specifically about these gnostic priestesses/prostitutes – for they all shaved their heads

Paul was countering the traditional pagan religious practices of the area.

In light of the historical happenings of the era, and biblical scripture many scholars assert that Paul was only suggesting that the women of this church must remain silent and be submissive until they learned the true teachings of Christ. After all the women of Corinth did prophesy.

I wish to respond to comments #21 and #26, in particular. Coming from the tradition where women did not take public roles in the church, I have found many ways to serve without being relegated to the kitchen or to the nursery….where I would be utterly useless. Fortunately, my father pushed his daughters into non-traditional roles. As a child, he would lift us up onto a large rock and tell us, “Make a speech!” He did not want us to be victimized by men. I suspect that some of our dilemma comes from our concept of “church” as an institution, whereas within the Body of Christ as an organism, there is much room for women to lead. Men may keep us in the pews, but that is only a very small part of “church”.

Brilliant! I think you are absolutely right Sylvia! The concept of Church as ‘institution’ has to go. We, the body of Christ are the Church.

My attitude may spring from the fact that I’m a baby Christian – only 3 years saved, so I’ve been free of the oppression that some women have felt within the Church.

I contend that it’s time to repent about that kind of thinking. The renewing of our mind is very biblical as well:

Romans 12:1-2

1Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.”

Let us not conform to tradition patterns of institutionalized church. Let us give ourselves entirely to God! If He sends us, let’s go! Let’s use our gifts the way He wants us too.

And as an aside, I don’t believe for a single moment that the use of the term ‘brothers’ means that’s only for men. wink

Greetings Steve,
To answer your first question, were God and Jesus one and the same? God is one, “ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” (Deut 6:4) But Jesus and God the Father are not one and the same they are both fully God, but are distinct. To say that they are one and the same would be guilty of modalism, a heretical error that needs to confronted.
(like Gnosticism that is mentioned in post 31)

I think you and I are talking about two different issues. One issue is have women ever been denigrated in a church setting. I would say absolutely just like African-Americans have been denigrated in the church. Both are sins and are an affront to biblical truths.
Believers are commanded to “consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.” A godly mature man will encourage a woman to do good deeds.
If a man is trying to oppress a woman, or keep her from serving he is an immature Christian at best, lacking in knowledge or obedience. If a man or woman sees a service role as one of power they too miss the point.

The issue in my post was that God gives great dignity to women, they are equal to men, but there are distinctions in there roles. These distinctions transcend time and culture.
Cindy in post 31 brings 1 Cor. 11 into our discussion so I will use that chapter to illustrate the point I was making.
Cindy highlighted much of the historical/cultural facts that we know about ancient Corinth, these facts help enrich our knowledge and understandings, but the author dictates the meaning of scripture not the culture. In 1 Cor. 11 the author states biblical precepts that originated back at creation and bind all that are to follow.

Cindy pointed out many cultural influences that may have had significant bearings that effected these womens actions, but in correcting them Paul goes beyond the immediate cultural problems and shows that the definitive correction and applied principle is not from their culture, but from God at creation (again transcending time and culture)
1 Cor. 11: 3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God… but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.
11 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. (love this part, by design we are equal and co-dependent on each other)
My original point was to show that the unity and diversity of men and women reflect the unity and diversity within the Godhead. The scripture states that men are the head of women LIKE God is the head of Christ. So, to say that the designated role of women is less that that of a man’s is to say that Christ is less than God the Father- and that would be committing heresy. Jesus is equal to God, but he has a different and distinct role, not less valuable, but different.

Sylvia makes a great point, if a woman is a gifted leader or teacher, then lead and teach, just do not think that God is calling you to be an overseer in your local church. But PLEASE take the gospel out-go make disciples; teaching them… Go to your work place, go to a nursing home, invite your neighbors to a Bible study, get saints together from your church and facilitate a Bible study, use your God given talents for advancing His kingdom and glorifying Him.
I hope this helps to clarify my point.

Lisa, I think this one sentence fully clarifies your point:

”...if a woman is a gifted leader or teacher, then lead and teach, just do not think that God is calling you to be an overseer in your local church.”

I respectfully disagree because I do not consider the institution or church building to be The Church. There is only one Church, and the Church has one overseer – Jesus Christ.

If I followed your argument to its logical conclusion then women should not even lead small groups with men in them. They should only teach other women. But you very clearly say that it’s fine for women to teach.

That being said, I think your knowledge of the scriptures and church history is outstanding. After reading your two posts I have a great deal of respect for you and hold you in high regard. And I’m glad that you have studied these things enough to have informed opinions. I just don’t agree with this particular one. :-) I wish I had your email or web site so that I could read more.

All of these postings have made me stop and think,and for that I am most grateful to all of you. God bless you all abundantly!!!