The War is Over

Here were the circumstances of his “coming out”: “Despite the efforts of the Philippine Army, letters and newspapers left for them, radio broadcasts, and even a plea from Onoda’s brother, he did not believe the war was over. On February 20, 1974, Onoda encountered a young Japanese university dropout named Norio Suzuki who was traveling the wold and told his friends that he was “going to look for Lieutenant Onoda, a panda, and the abominable snowman, in that order. The two became friends, but Onoda said that he was waiting for orders from one of his commanders. On March 9, 1974, Onoda went to an agreed upon place and found a note that had been left by Suzuki. Suzuki had brought along Onoda’s one-time superior commander, Major Taniguchi, who delivered the oral orders for Onoda to surrender.”

Thank you, Jeromy. That’s an amazing message of hope.

However, I have to wonder what would have happened if someone other than a Japanese person had approached Onoda’s hiding place?

I think, to some of the Holdouts in our society, that’s the way Christians look to them. We look like the enemy and so they respond in kind.

Additionally, we cannot forget the consequences of not accepting the fact that God is no longer against us. As hard as this sounds, if we continue to believe that the war is continuing, then when the final day comes, that is how we will end…still at war with our God only, this time, we will be POW’s, locked away, eternally seperated.

I think that’s what “hell” may actually be…not as much the pit of fire as has been popularly mythologized, but a state of eternal seperation of ultimately our own choosing. We refused to accept the end of hostilities and so we are left to ourselves and declared, officially, dead forever.

Sobering thought, to me…

Robert, I get where you are coming from. Here is a little bit more of what I believe regarding this issue: http://tinyurl.com/8se6bd

Robert, you said, “I think that’s what “hell” may actually be”

Bingo.

If the war is over since Jesus came, then why did He Himself say in John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Or why did Paul preach to the Athenians in Acts 17:30-31 “In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”
No the world can only be reconciled to God through the cross work of Christ. Our message to the world is the same as Paul’s in 2 Co 5:20 ”. . . we beg you on Christ’s behalf to be reconciled to God.” The war still goes on but you can be reconciled to the Father through the subsitutionary death of Christ. What an amazing Savior to die on behalf of sinners like us.

Matt, you said that “the war still goes on…”, do you believe that God is still at war with us?

Allow me to add that, I believe, the war is over because of what Jesus did on the cross and through his resurrection. As you said, indeed, we do have an amazing God, “Now that we are set right with God by means of this sacrificial death, the consummate blood sacrifice, there is no longer a question of being at odds with God in any way. If, when we were at our worst, we were put on friendly terms with God by the sacrificial death of his Son, now that we’re at our best, just think of how our lives will expand and deepen by means of his resurrection life! Now that we have actually received this amazing friendship with God, we are no longer content to simply say it in plodding prose. We sing and shout our praises to God through Jesus, the Messiah!”

Jeromy,

I think I understand Matt’s concern and, to a point, I share it. Yes, the war is over on God’s part…He no longer desires the aggression with us and has given us the opportunity to sign the peace treaty… but, as the scriptures that Matt pointed out show, for those who have not yet signed the treaty, there is still a state of war… not because it is desired by God, but because a peace treaty is only good if both sides agree.

So, for those who have not yet agreed that there is peace through the reconciling act of the cross, conflict still exists…

I see what Robert and Matt are saying. I must say, I enjoyed the initial post, and there is something very attractive about the notion that our ‘belief is just for us’—that it is just a matter of changing our perspective to receive the reconciliation that is already done. I think there is a sense in which this is true, yet it doesn’t seem to fully resonate with the scriptural view. I do not believe the Scriptural view is that God is still ‘hunting us down, wanting to kill us’, but there does seem to be a sense in which the reconciliation is contingent upon our belief, upon our accepting the work that God has done.

Is this another case where many emergents would simply say, ‘you’re reading the Scriptures too literally, like a modernist’?

I simply think that many smart and Godly people read the same scripture and coming to very different conclusions.

But which conclusion is correct?

Sean, Sean, Sean…

You’re not suggesting that something like TRUTH exists are you?

Silly boy!

What would we say if Odona had refused stop fighting and couldn`t bear the thought of surrendering to those that he had once fought against and continued to wage his own personal war against anyone who he thought was the enemy.

BOB,

I think the metaphor from Odona breaks down a little bit at this point. A human political institution like the US Government or Philipine Government would probably take action against a loose cannon like Odona and probably shoot back.

God, on the other hand, would probably continually try and reach out to Odona and do everything within His inexhaustable power to convince Odona that there is no need to fight anymore.

But I also read in Scripture that there will come a day when God essentially says, “Enough… those of you who have accepted the peace treaty, come with me. I’ve got a new place for you. The rest of you, I’m sorry, but you had your chance…”

What would we say if Odona had refused stop fighting…

Bob,
I think we could say of such a person that they are becoming increasingly dehumanized.

To continually reject the truth about you is to, in effect, reject what it means to be human.

Continual denial is a chilling thought and perhaps the reason Jesus gave such stark warnings about heading down such a path.

peace.

Jeromy,

It is obviously true that intelligent and well-meaning people read the same scripture and come to different conclusions. But I think we can say a little more than that—I’d be very interested to know how you do read passages, both from Jesus and Paul (or at least put in their mouth by the NT authors), which strongly suggest that some kind of reception on our part is actually necessary for the reconciliation to take place.

Dan,

While I agree to a point that there is some action that we need to do, the point I think that is being made by Jeromy is that God has already done His part. Humans may still maintain hostilities (haven’t opened the door, haven’t confessed with their heart, have not accepted the free gift of grace, etc, etc) but, as soon as a human accepts the end of hostilities, there is no further action necessary to end “the war”.

My question, though, is what ultimately happens to those humans who die that have never accepted the end of hostilities… or, if you believe along these lines, when that final day comes, what happens to those humans who have not accepted the peace treaty? For me, Scripture is pretty clear that there is going to come a time when it is too late. For now, grace is still extended and all we humans need to do is accept that free gift.

A question: When we die, are God’s hands tied to extend grace even then? When every knee bows and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord, can God offer mercy? Or does our death limit God?

Sean, you said: “But which conclusion is correct?”

God’s.

Jeromy, I will take a stab at your question.

Or does our death limit God?

No.

(but you already knew my answer) :)

“For now, grace is still extended and all we humans need to do is accept that free gift.”

“all” we need to do is accept it? Robert, I am not sure I buy this anymore.

I am far more confident in God’s decisions made towards God’s creation than I am in humanities ability to accept or reject God’s advances.

“I am far more confident in God’s decisions made toward God’s creation than I am in humanities ability to accept or reject God’s advances.”

While, Chad, I agree that God’s grace is much more sufficient and much greater than I can imagine, both Christ’s words and Paul’s words and the words shared to John the Revelator indicate that there is some point at which the human choice comes into play. Whether you believe that human choice is “elected” by God or if there is a free will element is irrelevant. Scripture seems indicate that, while God’s offering is infinite, there is a self-limiting factor on the part of God that he desires that we choose to be in community with him.

As stated above, I don’t think hell and damnation is going to be as much a punishment from God as it is a natural reaction to humanities rejection of communion with God. If we reject that communion, God will not force it on us. He will grieve that we did not accept, but He will not demand it of us. Someone once said, “A gift demanded is no gift at all.”

Let me add one thing more as clarification:

While I believe that there are going to be some people that are going to be excluded from that final communion with our Creator, I do not think it is our place as humans to concretely say “You are in and you are out.” We, honestly, do not know the mind of God to that level of detail. Our job is to extend God’s grace to everyone we meet, to continue to air-drop the pamphlets that say “The War is Over” both in word and in deed. Ultimately, it’s God’s grace that takes care of things. My job is to be a witness.

Robert, well said. I think a lot of this is simply letting God be God and me be a human with incredible limitations of understanding God and God’s grace, etc. Will there be some who reject God when standing before God? Possibly, though I personally do not think likely. What will God do with those who still reject God’s grace when in the full presence of it? I’m leaving that to God.

Robert,

Barth calls hell the “impossible possibility.” I tend to agree with him.

I agree with you that our job is to point the way (to witness) to Life. And we do this in word and deed, as you state. However, I am less convinced that salvation has to do primarily with our eternal destiny as it does with God’s plan for all of creation. The theme of this OP fits well with what I believe to be the kernel of the gospel: You are saved, therefore, repent. Our choices, while I agree with you are free, are not the deciding factor in our eternal damnation or salvation. Rather, our choices affect us today – in the here and now – and are the difference between a person who is building for the Kingdom of God today or one who is not, and lives as though we are still at war.

I apologize if this is disjointed. I am writing while sitting in a Revelation Exegesis course, of which I probably should be paying better attention. :)

peace,
Chad

Maybe I am reading to much of the Old Testament but when were we ever God’s enemy? The animosity has always been on our part! God has never had any animosity towards us. From the beginning he has been trying to woo us back.

Scott,

You are correct… we are the ones that started the hostilities… but as a just and righteous God, there is a consequence that we deserve for our opening of aggression… His Grace, though, is the offer to end that state of conflict… All we need to do is surrender…

Agreed, Scott.

Robert, what do you make of passages like Romans 5? I do not see that God has made an “offer” of grace. Rather, I see God’s work in Christ as “finished” (according to Jesus himself). Paul says in Romans that it is while we were enemies of God that Christ died for us. He goes on to say that we have been reconciled (past tense)to God and, therefore, we ought to live as reconciled people.

Would you agree that objectively, from God’s vantage point, there is no conflict? The war is over and peace has been made?

Chad,

Agreed. From God’s point of view, there is no conflict.

But God is also a just God. We cannot just take Romans 5 without taking Revelations. Or Matthew. Or Amos. Or Isaiah. God’s grace is infinite. But His justice is ultimate. You cannot have grace and mercy if there is not something from which we need to be “saved” from by that same grace and mercy.

So yes. From God’s vantage point, the conflict is over…but only to the extent that He has personally stopped the hostilities and is constantly and consistently suing for an end of all aggression. However, so long as we continue the aggression, either deliberately or inadvertantly, we are still subject to His justice. I fall on my face frequently before him, begging his forgiveness for continuing the hostilities from my vantage point.

To continue with Romans, from the NIV, in Romans 8, we read “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”. Note the clause “for those who are in Christ Jesus.” The condemnation is ended for those who are in Christ Jesus. But Paul does not say anything about those who are not. If you’re not in Christ, you’re still subject to the law. And, the law says that if you continue to fight against God, you will die.

This is a VERY uncomfortable part of Christianity, one that is unwelcome in current US society. We don’t like the idea of consequences…but consquences happen none-the-less. I cannot in good conscience say that humanity is completely covered, even those outside of Jesus, when there is such evidence of a just and righteous God in whose presence I would die were it not for the grace bought for me by Jesus.

Robert,

I guess where we differ is that I do not view God’s grace and God’s justice as oppossing forces. They are not at odds with each other, as your comment seems to intimate (I gather this when you say that grace is infinite “but” justice is ulitimate).

Justice is something to be celebrated, not feared. God’s judgment (justice) will happen. It is something that “all of creation groans for” because it is at that time when God will set the world to rights (a good read on this is N.T. Wright’s Suprised by Hope).

While there are certainly those who “kick against the goads” and refuse to bow to the one true Lord of the universe there will come a day when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. Because God desires that none should perish and because we know God best in Jesus who never stops searching until the last one is found I think the hope we give account to ought to be far more robust, far more glorious, and far more “good news” than what we tend to proclaim as merely “potential” good news. The Gospel, far too often, gets peddled as something that is “good” only if you are lucky enough to hear it and wise enough to consent to it. I do not believe God’s grand plan of salvation (for all creation) will be thrwarted by ignorance or stupidity.

Do you believe it possible that God can continue to woo the lost even after death?

Not thwarted by ignorance or stupidity, no…but there is the human factor of rebellion.

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on this point. I love the message of hope and grace that comes from the ministry of Christ. But grace and mercy mean nothing, in my understanding, if there is nothing for which I need to receive mercy. And, in my reading and understanding of God’s Word, there is a definite consequence for refusing to accept that mercy.

Your reading and my reading may be different. Ultimately, neither of us knows the complete Truth of the matter.

Same goes for God wooing the lost even after death. Is it possible? Yes. Do I know it for fact? No. What I do know is that I need to claim the mercy and grace offered by Jesus as do all. And while every knee will bow and every tongue confess, to quote the book of James a bit out of context, even the demons confess that. Stating the truth is one thing. Accepting it and acting on it is an entirely different matter.

Robert, I agree that neither of us knows the complete truth of the matter. I look forward to the day that I anticipate will be full of surprises for all of us.

grace and peace,
Chad

Robert, I think a lot of this post pointed to the “no condemnation in Christ” issue. That through the cross and resurrection, we are all positionally “in Christ”...hence the peace God declared, but there are those who are “in Christ” who do not live “in Christ” because of many reasons. I believe most of the judgment and condemnation is our own.

I think Titus 4:10 points to this, ”....that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.”

Not so much arguing as I am sharing a bit more where I am coming from.

Is our faith really so digital – either I believe the war’s over or I don’t? The life I live varies quite a lot with the more analog-like fluctuation of my confidence in the fact that the war is over here, now, in this situation of life.
Likewise, in bringing in the Kingdom, my hope is to be a part of the ever-increasing reality of the Kingdom of God wooing its world away from the everyday destruction of this one.

Monte, well said.

One picture that has helped me understand the tension between the finished and the continuing war is the very similar one of the prisoner and the opened prison door. The opened door is already fact but the experience of freedom is completely contingent on the prisoner choosing to walk through that open door (which in turn depends on his inner conviction that he’s been freed indeed). The disagreement we usually find unable to resolve is the question whether Gods’s infinite and unending (cf. 1 Cor.13!) pursuit of love will ultimately result in everyone freely chosing to walk in salvation and freedom, or whether C.S. Lewis’ point in “The Great Divorce” more accurately describes the inner state of those who continually reject this love, eventually being totally unable to see and understand what is offered to them.

Whether the latter would constitute a “defeat” of God and God’s ability to save, may be more a question of our own definitions what constitutes victory and defeat than the actual descriptions we find in Scripture. I personally have not come to a final conclusion what the eventual outcome will be – but ONE thing I would be confident to affirm: a universal hope is definitely in line with God’s goal and desire and if that goal will indeed be reached, it’s only something that is reason for rejoicing, not continuing controversy.

“A question: When we die, are God’s hands tied to extend grace even then? When every knee bows and every tongue confess Jesus as Lord, can God offer mercy? Or does our death limit God?”

I realize I’m late in this particular conversation but this question doesn’t seem to take into account that God is Holy. This is why we needed a savior in the first place. Our sin separates us from God. So to answer the question…God is not limited we simply made our decision. Another way to ask the question could be, “When we die and stand before God, will he reject those who did not put faith in him?” Yes, because they rejected Him and chose to believe a lie.

Justin,
That could be. I tend to think that there are quite a few obstacles to our reception of the grace so freely offered the world by God in Christ. Some people have more obstacles than others depending on where they were born, what sort of family they had, what sort of education they had, and a host of other reasons. As Christians (and as people part of the Church) I see our task to be helping remove people’s obstacles to receiving grace. Sometimes we do this really well (like when we love our enemies and minister to the poor, hungry and marginalized) and other times we do this poorly (like when we make good news exclusive rather than inclusive and do the sorting of the wheat and the tares ourselves).

Yes, God is holy. But this is the same God who chose to be born among the shit around a feeding trough. This is the God who emptied himself (Phil. 2) and took on flesh – our flesh – and was not ashamed to do so. Whatever we want to think about God’s holiness let it not include the idea that God cannot handle getting God’s hands dirty.

Lastly, when we are face to face with this God, and ALL obstacles to the reception of grace are removed, it would only be the madman who refuses to bow and confess. Jesus Christ, who is the righteous Judge, will do perfectly what we the Church have only done in part – what we have only been able to offer feeble gestures towards.

peace,
Chad