Thanks for the Conversation

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On first read, here are my thoughts.

Conversations are great. But being a part of a church is not optional.

Heb. 10 says let us not give up meeting together.

I can not think of very many Emergent leaders that are not apart of some church.

Appreciate the post Nick

First of all I want to say thanks for posting this Nick. I dont know you personally but I do enjoy your podcast and I cant wait to read the book. In no way whatsoever is this comment meant to provoke you or badmouth what you are doing. Now with the disclaimer out of the way i just want to give a little “pushback” as emergents so often call it. I have been somewhat involved with the Birmingham cohort that you were a part of before you left on your world travels. I have come to know many of your former fellow cohort participants. Hell, Ive even listened to the entire podcast of you guys at Panera bread. Ken, Tyler, and some of the folks at Disciples Fellowship have offered me a great place to visit church when I can and they were all on that recording. I hardly ever go to church and I can relate to you in the fact that Im sorta on the “outside” of that world looking in. I have also been somewhat on the outside of the EC “conversation”. Most of the time I dont feel like I really belong in the conversation because I dont use words like “intentional community” or “subversive” or “divergent” or whatever the hip catch phrases are these days. I have tried to participate as best as I can but when Im at a gathering or a cohort I dont fit in, which is odd because Ive always thought emergent was supposed to be a place of open dialogue. Too often I have found it to be a place that is open to a very specific type of dialogue. I have come to realize that when it comes to certain aspects there are “correct” answers for emergent types to give. Many times I would add my voice to the discussion and I was shocked to see how uncomfortable it made other people. I also dont have allot of concrete beliefs which is odd because many emergents claim to strive for things that are beyond ideology but many times I have come to view them as subscribing to a very precise type of ideology, which doesnt leave much room for true conversation. Beer and cigars are okay I guess but I just dont think its that big of a deal to be able to drink and smoke… cigars. On the reccomendation of Brian Mclaren I started reading some Huston Smith. His work with psychedelic plants and chemicals was fascinating to me because i too had experimented with many of these drugs and had found them to have an interesting overlap with spirituality. (I DO NOT condone illegal drug use.) rergardless the closer I was drawn in to the emergent convo the more I began to realize that my past experience was probably too weird for many in the convo and this discouraged me. It was like emergent was supposed to be this new type of interaction among christians and I began to see it as something that was designed for people who think drinking beer is something to constantly talk about…why is beer soooooo cool to emergents? I love beer as much as the next guy but dang, u know? Since I felt as though I was on the outside looking in there is much of your post about how dissapointed you were with emergent that caught my eye, but I thought you were jumping the gun. U said that u wanted everything t change but it didnt. That blew me away because u seem like a smart guy but things dont work like that. Real change takes a loooooooooong time. Usually epic change take many decades to really see the effect take place. This confused me about your view of emergent. Now that u are saying your “seemingly” invested …Im really confused. I dont think your an outsider AT ALL. You are an insider whether you like it or not. I dont think you can proclaim yourself to be a “d-list” celebrity of the emerging church on your podcast website and then act like your on the outside. Your not on the outside unless im totally missing something. I feel like I really know what its like to be on the outside of this thing. I mean no disrespect but I find it odd that someone who is on this blog posting from theirs and has a emergent network branded podcast and has a book coming out called The Hopeful Skeptic can even remotely say that their not a part of it on the inside. I dont think its bad, I just think its confusing and as someone who really thinks hes on the outside of this thing its perplexing. I would love to hear your response because ive probably got it all wrong…(it wouldnt be the first time!)

Daniel, thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful response. (Thanks also to Ken for his response and Ted for whatever we won, and to Mark. . . dont even get me started on the book of hebrews).

Daniel, in response. I take your point. My podcast is emergenty and I have been part of a cohort. I am definitely on the outside of church, and I guess I am an outsider because when I attend a cohort or an emergent gathering, I am one of the very few that doesn’t attend church. But yes, I am a self appointed d-list celebrity of the conversation. Its funny that you bring this up, because the reason Josh Brown and I started the podcast was because we really wanted to be in this conversation and we wanted to talk with people like brian mclaren and the like, but he was always swamped at conferences we went to he was always swamped and we were the youngest people there and not church leaders. So we always felt out of place – and doug pagitt stole some pizza from us – but then we decided to do our own thing inside the conversation and start interviewing people in hopes of getting to have conversations with people inside the conversation. So we set ourselves up as interviewers, but I still call myself an outsider, because I am not actively involved in a community that is using the theology I am developing in the conversation in a community. If that makes sense. So that is sort of where I see myself. I think there is a big difference between me interacting with the emergent conversation and people that are in the emergent conversation and using that conversation to fuel their communities.

Does that distinction help? I am writing this on no sleep so it may not help at all.

That distinction clears up allot of the confusion. Id always felt as though you were an insider in the sense that you talked with many of the main voices in your podcast. The fact that your not specifically interacting with a community and using this theology that is “emerging” does make a difference. Most of the people I know that are in the EC are involved in a more traditional type of ministry or church. Your path is different and I think thats good. Because of this im interested to see what you do in the future. We need more different paths. I appreciate what many in the ec are doing and the work that they contribute to. i just cant stand church and thats probably because I live in the bible belt and the only church I could imagine going to (DF) is 45 minutes across town and I make that commute all week long, 6 days a week i dont feel like dragging my family through that every weekend. Not to mention the gas money! I liked what your friend Zach said on that video chat about how it wasnt possible to drag his little kids across town to the church they liked so they just dealt with going to a more mainstream church. I might need to try that. I can relate because my wife and I have two little girls and one of them is only 4 months old. I think it may have been Augustine who said “The church is a whore…but she is our mother.” Thats how I feel because i respect people who can attend “big boy church” but for some reason Its like pulling teeth for me to attend. I guess ive just gone so far outside the boundaries that most “good christian people” who attend church stay within that I feel I CANT go back. Who knows what will happen. Thanks for the response, it made plenty of sense. I thought my question/comment was extrememly confusing because I too am running on very little sleep and as you can tell I jump all over the place but Im glad you figure it out. Also, I met Justin Banger at Samford University when Pete Rolllins was in town, Justin is an incredible artist and I dig the above illustration very much, although Im still trying to figure out the paper airplane??? Thanks again man…for the conversation that is

Yeah, Zach is wiser and more mature than me. And I am glad to have people like him around.

Glad that cleared it up. All I want to say is that yes I am in some ways very much an insider. But there had also been times when I felt like such an outsider I was about to drop the whole thing all together. I am glad that the way it looks like ec is going, if you want to be involved, it will be hard to be an outsider.

I’m a little confused about the first sentence of your third paragraph. Did you accidentally leave out the word “not” before the word “supportive”? Thanks for the post and your honesty.

Thanks for the post, Nick. I have similar feelings. I’ve dabbled in the conversation also, but I know that I don’t always fit inside the boundaries drawn by people like Tony Jones.

It has helped me to know you are in (or around) the conversation. It gave me hope that the conversation might actually open up a little wider.

I need to be in a place where I feel safe and where I can grow.

I hear you :)

Thanks for the post, Nick. I myself am a dabbler in the Emergent conversation. I also know what you mean about taking a break from organized religion. I have to step away mentally (at times) to keep myself from worse frustration. Honestly, though, I would rather be part of an imperfect Body than part of no Body.