Pagan Christianity: Frank Viola Responds to Critics

Thanks for the link, Steve.

I’m glad they edited the book from the advance copy I have. The final version says, “We are also making an outrageous proposal: that the church in its contemporary, institutional form has neither a biblical nor a historical right to function as it does.” I like that better than their original statement that it has no right to exist.

Hope that this book generates lots of discussion.

I’ve been hosting a discussion on the topics raised in the book at my blog. There have been good discussions so far. Today we’re talking about the role of the pastor.

I believe the value of the book is in bringing the issues to the table, not necessarily in providing answers.

This book is set to arrive at my doorstep any moment now. It’s good to see others speaking of it.

Darryl I totally agree with you on this. The earlier version definitely an overstatement that merits being dropped from the book. Even this is a tough one to swallow.

I’ve not read the book, though I’ve read La Grou and Dash’s reviews.

My impression is that the book is yet another in the long list of attempts to critique contemporary Christianity through the “objective” lens of the “pure” early church. Aside from the tendency to re-read early Christianity as validating our own subjective (and often subconscious) assumptions, any basic reading of the NT letters shows that the early church was a mess. From the reviews I don’t see evidence that the authors wrestle with this issue, which to me seems like a considerable problem with their overall approach.

I’ll also add that in my opinion an endorsement by Barna (“objective” statistician that he is) is about as credible as an endorsement by Chuck Norris.

I haven’t read the book, but I hear that Frank Viola eats human babies. I think I saw that in a review somewhere.

Nicholas, if you’ve read the book perhaps you wouldn’t mind sharing examples of where my critique is off base. Then maybe I’ll have a reason to read the book myself.

I added my comment as I didn’t see anyone challenging the authors overall approach in the reviews I read.

Based on my understanding of Pagan Christianity’s method, most of the arguments in the text will not be of interest to me.

Scott, I am being snarky, though I do find it ‘wierd’ that in a ‘conversation’ that is attacked by so many critics who haven’t read ‘Emergent Literature’ for themselves, that there is a group of emergent bloggers who are writing criticisms of something they haven’t read. It just seems odd to me. I liked the good old days, maybe I am too old fashioned. Or maybe I am just too big of a skeptic to believe anything I haven’t experienced.

At any rate, I don’t think that the thesis of this book is that Frank thinks we should go back to the NT way of life. I think the question is, after looking at how some things have developed in the church, Are current church practices bringing us closer to g-d’s beautiful dream of a community or further away. I think there are cases in both directions for lots of the churches current practices. I would also point you to our interview to hear with Frank if you aren’t keen on the reading aspect. [thenickandjoshpodcast.com]

Hi Steve. Thanks for the link.

There’s another book that helps balance Pagan Christianity – it’s called House Church and Mission.

Where PC takes broad liberty in characterizing the 1c church, HC&M takes a more conservative view, with the bottom line being ‘we simply don’t know a whole lot of detail about the earliest church.’

That said, I find few who disagree that religious institutionalization has, for nearly two millennia, hindered faith communities from understanding (and experiencing) the horizontal, lay-led, participatory, all-body ministry that was intentionally (not accidentally) created by the man we follow.

Does anyone find it a little humorous that Viola’s criticism of the modern church is that its ecclesiology and liturgy is too pagan when he made his living as a public school teacher (public schooling is modeled after greco-roman, “pagan” educational models) teaching philosophy (pagan roots) and psychology (pagan roots) and then, in his spare time, wrote a book and then sold it for 15 bucks a copy (like a pagan orators charging for a speech)?

I don’t know what you folks call it but back home we used to call things like this “hypocrisy.”

Jerry, “Pagan Christianity?” does not argue that an event or practice is wrong just because it’s pagan in origin. Frank has also answered questions about the differences between secular institutions and the church at www.ptmin.org/answers.htm

Frank Viola has captured many truths about the biblical church but when it comes to the role of the elder he throws the baby out with the bathwater. He is correct to want to jettison religion. The religion that calls itself “Christian” (both catholic and protestant) is not the true church. The rightly divided word gives wonderful direction for the true church. The true church does not have a denominational name: It is the body of Christ. No middle men, no popes, no go betweens, just the one and only Jesus the anointed one as the head. Members of the true church have Christ in them (Col 1:27) and have an unbreakable relationship with God through Christ.

Will there soon be yet another new denomination based on Violaism? It like the rest of the modern ”emerging church” has a strong emphasis on social gathering with all who come welcome to spew their weird religious doctrines while the bible is avoided? We need the rightly divided word of God now more than ever. In 1 Peter 5:1-3 elders are exhorted to “feed the flock of God.” There is only one source of food for the flock of God: The Word of God. See chapter 4 Partnership One With Another: Neil Tolman 1993 at: http://www.neilshouse.com/POA4.html#4 neilrn@maine.rr.com

I just heard this interview by George Barna and Frank Viola, I thought it was great. http://www.ptmin.org/barna_viola2.mp3

The sequel to “Pagan Christianity?” is out now. It’s called “Reimagining Church”. It picks up where “Pagan Christianity” left off and continues the conversation. (“Pagan Christianity” was never meant to be a stand alone book; it’s part one of the conversation.) “Reimagining Church” is endorsed by Leonard Sweet, Shane Claiborne, Alan Hirsch, and many others. You can read a sample chapter at http://www.ReimaginingChurch.org. It’s also available on Amazon.com. Frank is also blogging now at http://frankviola.wordpress.com/

Thanks, Jill! I posted about “Reimagining Church” here:
http://www.emergentvillage.com/weblog/frank-violas-reimagining-church