Blast from the Past, Part I

I have a question on this, we have a community in the works that is emergent flavored if not all out emergent, we had a pretty lengthy and go-nowhere conversation about what was in our out for a statement of faith, what do you think a “church” should do with regard to saying what it believes?

make that “in or out”

Hi LandonSandy,

I have posted some comments related to your question over on my website, if you are interested: www.leronshults.typepad.com

LeRon Shults:

You wrote:
“First, such an approach presupposes a (Platonic or Cartesian) representationalist view of language, which has been undermined in late modernity by a variety of disciplines across the social and physical sciences (e.g., sociolinguistics and paleo-biology). Why would Emergent want to force the new wine of the Spirit’s powerful transformation of communities into old modernist wineskins? Second, and more importantly from a theological perspective, this fixation with propositions can easily lead to the attempt to use the finite tool of language on an absolute Presence that transcends and embraces all finite reality.”

Over thirty years ago when I became a follower of Jesus I would have considered myself an “emergent” according to the thought being spread around today. I was not traditional nor was I interested in the complexities of organized religion. I just simply wanted a relationship with the God who created me. Your quoted statement is so far from this simplicity I probably would have run, not walk, away from church and God.

You sound just like the scholars and professors using meaningless words to confuse and labor their points until we all just give up and say, “OK whatever.”

I don’t mean to be harsh but people, whether they intend to or not, codify what they believe. Why? So we can be on the same page of communication.

I think I understand what you are saying, but keep it simple, which is what I believe the whole emergent thing is, seeking God in a way that He might be found.

Can a “movement” have a doctrinal statement? I don’t see how it can. You could have each “leader” or “contributor” post individual statements but those would be different because the contributors all come from different schools of theology and denominations.

If everyone involved held the same exact ideas then there would be no conversation. What would you discuss? It would be more like a collective “pat on the back”. The first requirement on any conversation is that one or more of the participants has some different angle or perspective on the topic to share.

The only option would be to try and put together a list of items that are “non-negotiable” or a “least common denominator”. But if you do that you are basically outlining which people will be excluded from the conversation. Why do that? Will you exclude Calvinists? Will you exclude dispensationalists? Will it be only Christians? Who will define Christian? Each person in this conversation should have strong opinions and beliefs but the collective conversation should not have defined boundaries.

If there must be a lowest common denominator for the conversation then let’s make it “WE BELIEVE GOD IS LOVE” and leave it there. That will be too broad, but it should be. If any one person feels the “statement of faith” has nailed their views completely then it will by default be too narrow.

“If there must be a lowest common denominator for the conversation then let’s make it ‘WE BELIEVE GOD IS LOVE’”

Only problem with that is not everyone will agree that love is God’s core substance. I would think that if there was to be a statement of faith, it would be something pertaining to Jesus.

I posted on this thread but it either was deleted or something else. Is there a webmaster or someone to refer such questions to?

I will try to reproduce some of my thoughts. The “church”today is divided into hundreds of sects each claiming to have superior authority or biblical interpretations. Most of these are based on what are proposed to be”true” and “essential” formulations of God’s will. These propositions were supposed to keep the believers on course toward incarnating the Kingdom of God. Instead they seem inevitably to lead to self righteousness, crusades, persecutions, inquisitions, xenophobia, the violent overthrow of “heathen”, “pagan” or “heretical” cultures and individuals and a lot of pointless bickering.
As far as I can tell, Jesus taught nonviolent resistance to religious and State domination, humility before God, a willigness to exchange old beliefs( Dietary Law, eye for eye, etc) for a more perfect revelation of the spirit of God, and the building of a community dedicated to sharing their resources, and to a direct relation to God as their loving Father, a community in which the least would be as treasured and important as the natural leaders. Not as easy as believing a formula that guarantees you eternal life, but maybe we should give a few hundred years to pursuing such praxis, and let our belief statements serve more as the salt which flavors and preserves our conversation, rather than as a kind of medicine to be put down our throats in heaping spoonfuls.

Also I don’t much care for the inclusion of J. Calvin as a”great theologian”. He once tortured and executed a man for writing “rubbish” at the bottom of a Calvinist treatise.He killed 56 people as “heretics”. Not the tastiest fruit from this intolerant theology, and post Calvin Calvinists have a fair amount of blood on their hands.

Could someone please give me a website or a book that talks about Calvin pulling the trigger on heretics? I have seen that posted several times and wanted to learn more.

Micah
I have many friends among the Hutterites and studied their history with interest, which is where I first learned about the persecution and mass execution of the Anabaptists by Luther, Zwingli and the Catholics.This led me to sort through these reformation folks as to basic human tolerance. Grim to find that so many of these leaders of the reformation who sought freedom from the intolerance and corruption in the Catholic Church so quickly took up the sword against other reformation believers. Calvin was far from the worst of them, but anyone who will sanction the killing of someone for their religious or irreligious ideas falls far short of the example and teaching of Jesus. I don’t care for Calvin’s theology either, but perhaps he does have some great insights which I miss. He clearly missed something that kept him from true greatness. I think he is in many ways a perfect example of the dangers of faith positions which become dividing lines.
As far as sources, I knew the jist of this info about Calvin from earlier research but used Wikipedia for the numbers and example.I think a google search would turn up many bibliographic resources.

Of course we can’t have a statement of faith, since we can’t pin down any particulars that we actually believe, other than nice warm fuzzy ideas like “God is Love,” that can mean or not mean all kinds of things to just about anything and anybody. Certainly nothing distinctive about anything in the “expanded conversation.”

It’s certainly good to not emulate the “dark side” of all the religious figures from A to Z, but where does my own reflective, examined, honest, humble, “expanded conversationed” striving for good put me, or all you fellow “expanded conversationalists?”

Scripture (remember that “tired old book?”) informs us that our best is nothing but filthy rags to God.

While the conversation without end, limit, shape, and underlying structure beyond the vaguest possible tangibles, drifts aimlessly and amorphously into pseudoblissful nothingness throughout the universe, I think I’d rather jump to a little bit of definition, boundary and clarity; rather than ride McLaren’s rudderless, shapless cosmic jello blob to anywhere, everywhere, and nowhere!

And, HOLY EMERGENT GADZOOKS! I’ve helped the sick and poor, fed and clothed people, donated time and money and countless free services to the downtrodden poor, the “exploited” masses via “social injustice,” along with voluntary missionary service overseas,
And, UH, LIKE, UMM actually BELIEVE SOMETHING in the process. GEEZ, how can that be? I thought only those resoundingly “in the conversation” were capable of such enlightened, culturally sensitive superdoogooderism!

How can an adherent to orthodoxy do such warm fuzzy things? I thought a “Generous Orthodoxy” and such searching enlightment was a pre-requisite?

OLD TIME RELIGION: it was good for Paul and Silas, and it’s good enough for me!!

Joseph:

All your issues are people issues demonstrating and confirming what Paul taught about the law being our tutor or teacher. What does the law teach? We can not fellowship with God without help and this is the role of Jesus our mediator who paid the price for our fellowship.

People fight, kill, lie, steal, murder, commit immoral acts, and much more. We are all guilty of these crimes and it doesn’t take religion to fan these flames. It is simply the historic and present nature of mankind. But now we have a better way and His name is Jesus, alive and seated at the right hand of the Father.

Where is the conversation among those who fundamentally agree with Shults and Jones?

There’s yet another reason not to have one: Are not such statements made for the purpose of consolidation of power? They give a few the right to become gate-keepers, whose task is to guard the sacred flame. Jesus rejects power every time it’s offered to him. He doesn’t want to make the future, he wants to interact with it.

I am reading with interest all this stuff which is relatively new to me. But I have a question: Why, in all these conversations, do people refer only to “Jesus” and almost never to “Christ”? Is the latter somehow unpalatable?

Good Question Roger (#16). Personally, I’d be so bold as to say “Jesus Christ!” ...but, I’d hate for people to think that I’m swearing.

I believe that Jesus of Nazareth is the Incarnation of the Almighty, the Christ in whom we are saved.

AND – while I appreciate all that has been explained above regarding ‘To Dogmatize, or NOT To Dogmatize’ – I get a little wigged out about participating Spritual Movement that isn’t Christ (as in Jesus) centered.

Thank you for reposting this. What was the fall-out? Is there any kind of theologically or philosophically identifying… um… descriptor of the Emergent Movement?

I would ask this: is anyone here doubtful about this whole emergent thing? Do verses like “work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” cause you to really think about what you believe?

Please, please, please, listen I beg of you. My heart bleeds for you. Won’t you hear. The truth is out there, and it is deep and pure and satisfying if you drink from it you will never search again. Truth came through Jesus Christ, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth, and you shall know the truth and, and the truth shall make you free, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father exept through Me; when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;And He prays, Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. But Pilate said to Him, “what is truth?” may you open your hearts to Christ and trust Him. Cry out to Him you can trust Him fully, completly, absolutly, He loves you, trust Him, fall in love with Him. Cry out to Him

I’ll be honest with everyone here. I’m searching for the truth. It seems like we (i.e. humanity) are more interested in finding God and the truth about Him then God is at revealing Himself to us. Therefore, it seems like He is not that concerned with what we would call “truth”. I mean, if He was then there would be no mistaking it. It would be sound-proof. Because of this I find it okay to beleive in whatever route you want to as long as that route centers around what we already know as “true” found throughout creation (order, design beauty, love, etc.). All roads lead to Rome – right. And Jesus is as good a road as any. God help me and show mercy on me if I’m wrong – but then again, if I was wrong why doesn’t God just tell me so that I can be right. Which again begs the question – does God really care about what route we take to get to Him. Just love God and Love People.

Dude, you are wrong. God has revieled Himself via His Son Jesus Christ. Hebrews 1:1-2 states, “God after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son.” You have to ask yourself some questions about who you think Jesus is. The reason for this is that He made the claim that no one comes to God exept through Him (John 14:6). Now there are three options you can take either Jesus was a liar, and this way through Him is not the only way. He was crazy and was just making stuff up not really knowing what He was saying, in which case why trust Him. Or He is Lord, He really is the only way to God. I am trying to confront you with the truth not to fight against you but help you to see the truth God wants you to see. Jesus died for a reason and was raised again for a reason not just to show us a way but to be the way. He gave Himself for us, He is so unique. God wants you and the world to know the truth and has ensured that His message to the world be kept which is why He preserved the Bible and why it has been published more than any other book in the history of mankind, it is everywhere and thats no coincidence.

I respect that. I don’t think you are trying to fight with me. Honest. But I used to think just like you. I even have a theology degree from Liberty University. This is not just something I came to understand on a fly by night reflection.

1) You, and others like you (of which I once was), want everyone to beleive what you just said. (and for the record – I don’t have a problem with that). But I see no evidence TODAY that GOD cares of much as you do about people believing that. If he did then there would be “sound proof”. And don’t give me the resurrection – they have found the tomb of Jesus and his family. But let’s just say that the “Jesus Family Tomb” isn’t Jesus’ body – fine. Then let God say so – not just another “joe” saying it. Let God speak for Himself. Let there be sound proof.

2) Second, and lastly, it just seems to me that God loves order, design and beauty (we can see this is creation) – therefore, I desire to follow that which God has given sound proof to.

Love God and love people. If I’m wrong – then let God say so.

So Michael, you want God to speak about certain things (i.e,how your wrong and the tomb), but don’t feel like the spoken Word through the Bible is enough. I’m just wondering if it would really matter that much if God spoke loud and clear through a television ad or a really, really, really, big megaphone?

I honestly appreicate everyone trying to help me understand the importance of the Bible. But then we are speaking from a Western influence – aren’t we. Thus the Bible tends to the THE WORD of GOD. I do not dismiss the weight of the Bible – just the desire of God to make sure that people KNOW that THE BIBLE is HIS WORD – and not something else, etc. etc. etc.

I honestly wish you were right – becuase it would make things so much easier. But it is not easy.

Believe “this” because this is what the Bible says. etc. etc.

I just wish it was that easy.

But again – for the record, I respect the Bible and think those who follow the Bible are good people and doing a good thing. I currently don’t know anymore – but I still am true to the lifestyle reflected in the Bible. HAHAHAHA – And I sure I’ll make someone “mad” because my thoughts regarding God don’t correspond with theirs. Which is one reason people hate talking about God. SAD, huh.

Hi, Michael it’s Paul again. Wow I really don’t know what to write. I know that I’m not going to convince you of anything, I think we would probably both run each other ragged trying to out reason each other. I heard a good saying once maybe you have heard it, “convince a man against his will, he’s of the same opinion still.” For me I really like trusting the Bible as the Word of God it give me a sure foundation for my life and I try my best to filter my thoughts through it, I really don’t want that to change. But if I seriously began to see things not adding up I would hope that I would be honest enough to say so. And truthfully I do want you to think for the most part the way I do. It really gives me a heart to want to help you. This heart is not about correct thought although that is important but a right relationship. I could be wrong but here is what crossed my mind when I read your post. It made me think that you were hurting or angery or both, you got burned somewhere along the way and it caused you to not trust the way you once had. I would love to just hear what you have to say, I don’t know where you live but if you’re around Southern California I would gladly meet up for coffee. These posts are always hard to converse over. I have no doubt that we would probably have some pretty good conversations. Well my friend my heart goes out to you. All I can think is to leave you with the words of my Lord from Luke 16:31 “But he said to him, ‘if they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’” Take care, Paul

Thank you for your concern. That is honest.

You said, “For me I really like trusting the Bible as the Word of God it give me a sure foundation for my life and I try my best to filter my thoughts through it, I really don’t want that to change.”

I think the key in your thoughts are “FOR ME”. And I have no problem with that at all. I applaud that FOR YOU. I wish you the best. I wouldn’t try to change that FOR YOU.

Again, I wish to GOD that GOD (not someone who BELEIVES a certain way and desires for others to BELEIVE the same) would make it clear. But alas, He doesn’t. This sucks. I hate it, but what can I do. That only leaves me to beleive that God isn’t that interested in what we beleive, rather in how we live our lives in reflection to His creation (order, design beuaty, love, etc.). And yes, Jesus is as good of a road as any – actaully a better road than most. But I wouldn’t, nor couldn’t, say Jesus is THE ROAD.

God help me if I’m wrong. Or at least be kind enough to tell me Himself.

Michael I think your right. God is concerned in how we live our life. And your saying “love God and love people” seems to me to be right on. As a Christian I think it lines right up with the greatest comandment of loving God with your whole heart and your neighbor as yourself. How are you coming along? Moral realativism aside in what areas have you not loved God, in what areas have you not loved people? Have you ever hurt anyone with false words? Or have you ever taken somthing wrongly that was not yours? Or have you ever burned for somthing that didn’t belong to you? Ask yourself what do those things make you? Now this Creator God who has revealed Himself in order, design, etc. that is capable of mercy is over you. Where do you stand before this God are you innocent or guilty? With mercy there is judgement and with design there is cause and effect. By this God and by this message (love God, love people) you stand and by which you can be judged.

Agreed. If the Bible is True. (I’ve used these same lines of thoughts in the past myself when I used to witness to people). But this only brings us back to – why doesn’t God tell us the truth if He is so concerned with us adherning to “that truth”. ( Again, there is a difference between God telling me/people and people who believe a certain way telling me/people that God wants me/people to believe this or that).

My main concern is the lack of concern of God’s part to “speak the truth”. Which again, has lead me to believe that He isn’t really that concerned with believing “this” or “that”. I’m actaully unsure if He is even concerned of people “believing” period.

But, alas, I agree with you. I am guilty of not living up to what I desire to live up to. There is no claim of perfection here.

Hi Micheal, Yah I really don’t know why God doesn’t tell you or me directly but has used at least what I think to be other means, special (Bible) and general (creation) revelation. All I can say is that apparently God thinks those are good enough otherwise He would use somthing else. Just be careful in wanting to make God speak in a way that He doesn’t seem fit. We got to remember our postion, we are just the created and God is going to do things the way He wants not necessarily the way we want. There is also that gulf between us and God caused by sin that has a lot to do with the barrier.

Fair enough.

Either God does think that what is currently on the table (The Bible – that is assumming that the Bible is God Word) is good enough. Or we have just choosen to believe that God has choosen that the Bible is good enough. Or God doesn’t really care either way (this is the current position that I take – howbeit, I would much rather believe like you but can’t)- because if He really did then He would be the One trying to convence me and not you and/or others.

Trust me – I wish I could believe. I wish He would make it clear. But since He doesn’t then I’m left to believe that it is not that important to Him and that it is only important to us.

I guess that makes me a Deist – I used to make fun of Deist’s. LOL

Man – I hate being a Deist.

Lastly, that is nothing you can do and/or say to help me. But your efforts a nice. I’m just sick to my stomach. Maybe I care to much. It shouldn’t be that big of a deal to me since it doesn’t seem like that big of a deal to God. Maybe I’ll shoot myself in the head (that was joke).

Hi, I know there is nothing I can do for you intelectually, that is reason you into faith. But I will continue to pray for you. I really will and I really have. God was able to crack my heart so I have no doubt He is more than able to crack yours. Well stay out of trouble, don’t go preaching your doctrine to much and read the Bible; may God have mercy on you. Paul

Hi. I’m new here. Just been reading the posts, and had a couple of question for Michael. Is there a specific was in which you are wanting God to speak to you and prove that he is interested in our affairs? In what way would he need to communicate in order for you to be convinced that he cares? How should he try to convince us? Oh, and just for the record, I studied archeology and historical geography in Israel for my master’s degree—that tomb theory is really too circumstantial to be credible.

And as far as the whole statement of faith thing goes, I found the “About” page on this website to be sufficient. Why does it need to be spelled out any more than this?

It appears from your post that the Emergent Church is on a journy without destination. The Journey then becomes the focus.

Hopefully this is just a fad and it will end up ”... in a theological museum alongside other dead conceptual specimens…”

LeRon Shults writes above that Jesus did not have a “statement of faith.” Yet, such reasoning is the same as “Jesus did not drive SUV’s,” so . . .

Let’s keep “waking up”.

Why not have a statement of what we believe? Wouldn’t that help others identify us and know where we stand?

No. Unless we want to settle for mere mental accent which would both include and exclude people unjustly.

Think about it.

To include people based on a written statement is both shallow and unauthentic. It is not right for ourselves or for others to have false comfort and security ‘knowing’ we are ‘in’ because we can agree with a ‘statement of beliefs’ while we could actively oppose those same beliefs in our day-to-day lives (this is very much a reality of Religion).

Furthermore, words of belief and statements of faith are by their very nature (generally) exclusive in a way that is unrighteous. People are excluded who shouldn’t be because of the limitations of written words. What does “Jesus is the expressed image of God” mean to you? It is amazing how many people interpret these words differently – and that is a statement about statements!

So all this being said, catch the power of this:

Our statement of belief is not to be a written mental accent describing the boundaries of our faith.

No…
The only statement of belief that is both required and truly authentic is the very life we live!

It is our life relationship (with God and Humanity) that testifies of our belief and our faith – not words written on paper.

Who then is a Christian? – he who’s life testifies of the Messiah, he who is “Christ-like” or “Christian”.

To miss this point is to miss the difference between Jesus and Religion.

Together we are learning this more and more…

Let’s Keep Reaching and Growing His Intention, His Presence, His Kingdom!

Amen.

Matthew Armstrong
www.livingparable.com