Samir Selmanovic on Finding Our God in the Other

Pretty loose interpretation of Acts 17 – did this guy actually read it?
...and no, Samir, I’ve never been “blessed by a witch”

If we can find God in the other then what is the purpose of missionary endeavor? Once people know the true gospel if they reject it then they are lost. But if they don’t know it why not just leave them and with their ‘God in the other’ and they might just make heaven.

jim,
thanks for that comment, it makes a really good point.
Question:....Does it make Jesus’ command of making disciples pointless and may be even a bit cruel. Wouldn’t it be better if they “never knew”? – since then they can never be guilty of knowingly rejecting the name of Christ if they already have Christ inside them anyway.?

‘If they already have Christ inside them anyway.?’ For me this is the crux of the argument. who ever said they had Christ in them in the first place? Are human beings not ‘born in sin and shapen in iniquity’ Are they not already lost if they are outside of Christ. I believe that they are. That is why Jesus described conversion as being ‘born again.’That’s why Jesus sent his disciples to teach others the gospel. The responsibility is then on them to respond to the gospel.

Jim,
That bit in Rom 8 where is says the sinful mind is hostile to God and that those with a sinful nature can’t please God – how does that work if you already have Christ in you???
And Paul seems to say that IF Christ is in you…..implying that he is not in others…...??????
Hmmmmm…?

Samir gives a classic straw man argument to make his case. ALthough some pervert it, christianity is the religion Christ revealed. Our only basis of knowing it is from Christ. “In these last days he has spoken to us by his son.” Heb. 1:2 Everything else is conjecture. I am not aware of one place where Jesus says there is something greater than himself. Samir never proves this. Yet he makes this his most important basis for looking for God in the other. “He emptied himself” does not mean there is something greater. It means he had great humility. True humility is elevating God as supreme. Jesus told us where to find God, in himself and in the Bible. Going outside the place where Christ himself told us to go is extreme pride. This is what, was still “unknown” to the philosophers in Athens.

This is a wonderful message. Thank you Samir! My favorite line was the question he asks….

“Would you rather be a person of another religion that has accepted Christ in substance or a Christian that has accepted Christ in name only.”

This is exactly the point that the emerging church is making. We need to look past our “religions” and “denominations” and begin following Jesus. Following Jesus has nothing to do with what we believe about God, afterlife, miracles, 6-day creation, or the bible’s origin.

The whole crux of the argument is Romans is that man is lost in sin, especially in chapter 1. “Even though they knew God , they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. professing themselves to be wise they became fools.”

The emergent community need to stop saying nice things and start with scripture. so where are the scriptures to prove the message of Samir Selmanovic.

Incidentially, there is no such a thing as a Christian who has accepted Christ in name only! Such persons are dealt with in Mattt 7v21-23.

“Would you rather be a person of another religion that has accepted Christ in substance or a Christian that has accepted Christ in name only.”

Thats one of the phrases that just didn’t make any sense at all. Just tell me how you can “accept Christ in substance” and yet reject the name of Christ.

And wasn’t Jesus obedient to his Father God? (Phil 2) Wasn’t he very concerned about what we thought about God? (John 5v23).
It seems as though you are making a mystery and a paradox out of a very obvious truth – why is that?

For the people above that are struggling with this concept of “Christ being in everyone”...

You are not thinking out side the box of your traditional view of Christ. To understand Samir I think you first need to stop thinking about Christ as a literal ghost type figure that possesses people like in the excorcist movies. Christ is more like our humanity or maybe an attitude of compassion that is in all of us and needs to be nurtured out of its shell by dying to our animal nature (self) as Paul described it.

Where is scripture are we told that Christ is in everyone? Never. and for the record I have never thought of Christ as a ‘literal ghost type figure that possesses people like in the excorcist movies.’ But i do think of Him as a literal omni present person who lives in the lives of those He has redeemed,those to whom the Father has chosen to reveal him.’ To make an argument about Christ it must be supported by scripture. Can we have some scriptures please, not waffle!

I’m afraid we have to disagree, as I see scripture as being “God-breathed” and am happy to live under its authority. Perhaps your view of scripture is different, in which case, we will have radically different ideas.

Samir was wildly taking huge chunks of the Bible way out of context. If you don’t believe the Bible, Ok, don’t quote it – ignore it. But if you are going to tell me that Christ may be an attitude – please would you back up your proposition with something a little more solid than your opinion.

It isn’t that complicated.

“accept Christ in substance” means walking the walk not just talking the talk. It means making the vision of God for a just and compassionate society a reality (the kingdom/God’s will coming) Accepting Jesus in substance is accepting “the way” as your way.

“accepting Christ in name” meaning that someone labels themselves a Christian or adopts a belief system without buying into Jesus’ message to change the world into a world that resembles God’s will (...on earth as it is in heaven).

I would hope you can recognize those scripture references without the verse numbers. I wonder how Jesus and Paul ever showed anyone the light without having the NT in print. I guess nobody in the 1st century knew about Christ without verse numbers to make the truth true…did they? Surely nobody believed Paul’s discussion of Christ since his words were not clearly outlined in the form of a sacred text.

You are talking about missional living – which I agree with. God calls us to live justly and deal fairly with people.
But you are proposing what used to be called a “gospel of works”. A lot of religions think that by “walking the walk” gets them saved – but that is not what Jesus himself taught.
Talking about accepting Jesus way as “your way” is very NOW isn’t it. I call it the L”oreal culture “because I’m worth it” “its all about me” culture.

Sadly very different to what the Bible says about God and his dealings with man. When God chooses to reveal himself to sinful man, who are we to tell him we’d rather invent a “better” way.
It also seems that you don’t think the Bible is authoritative, correct me if I’m wrong.

I am sorry, I love sinners, I love them for who they are, I dont love their sin.

In a way I guess it is missional living, but mostly it is just The Kingdom of God, which is the centerpiece of the bible from start to finish. It is exodus from pharoah, freedom from ceasar, freedom from sin.

I totally disagree about your “all about me gospel”. It seems to me that the traditional “believe x,y,z and you will go to heaven” is more of a “Me oriented” type of gospel geared to make people feel good about their own personal chances in an afterlife. You can leave me out of that type of gospel. Instead, I see the gospel as nothing that “helps” me but something that “transforms” me and then transforms the world into God’s will on earth. Jesus called it being born again. Nowhere does the Bible say that the gospel is about believing in doctrine as a means of self preservation or reward in afterlife. The gospel is “The kingdom of God is at hand”. That seems clear to me and I think you’ll be able to find those verses without problem if you need the verse numbers.

I’m seeking to follow Jesus NOT men, NOT the Pope, and NOT the Evangelical’s interpretation/domestication of the Bible.

You are right about my biblical perspective. I don’t think that your interpretation of the bible is authoritative. This is not something I invented. Moses, the prophets, Jesus, Paul, and many others in places all around the world have talked about this way. It is God’s way and it is revealed to us over and over again. As the Gospel of John tells us, this
logos/reason/wisdom was ”...in the beginning” and then it became flesh as Jesus spoke it and lived it.

Salmir does a great job of expressing a call to move past doctrines tied to particular religions and moving toward a life on earth mirrors the will of God.

Thank you for your explanation of your view on scripture. I tend to live under the authority of scripture rather than imposing my view on it though. I find that you can make the Bible say all sorts of wierd things if you don’t let it speak for itself.
It says a lot about itself in it – like that ALL of it is God breathed and that it is SHARPER than a two-edged sword. Pity the man or woman who tried to meddle with it.
It also says If you seek, you WILL find and that Jesus offers eternal life for those that call on his name (you may know those verses).
For your information, I believe that eternal life starts NOW and not after death – Death will just be the body bit wearing out.
The “Me” centered-ness of some churches today bothers me – its not about “having your best life now” or about “empowering your life”, but about submitting to God (just as Jesus did) and recognising that without him as our Creator and Sustainer we are nothing. I don’t deserve a thing, but God in his mercy and for his glory (not mine) revealed himself on earth in the form of Jesus who paid for my sin on the cross.
Paid in full – he reconciled me to God – for His glory – Praise Him.

Oh Danutz
I think we may be at cross purposes about the authority of scripture –
I asked you whether you thought the Bible was authoritative.
You replied that you didn’t think my interpretation of the Bible was authorititative.
In order to clear up any misunderstanding here – sorry if I didn’t make myself a bit clearer…..
The Bible has authority
Not interpretation
Not yours
Not mine
Not Samir’s
Not the Pope’s
Not Bono’s
Not the Queen of England

The Bible itself, being the Word of God, has the final say.

Better to live under ITS authority, and therefore, God’s Way, rather than some hash up man has devised.

By the way – The message of the gospel is very simple and plain, for those that have eyes to see….

We certainly are in agreement about the “me centered” type of churches being bad news. I didn’t hear any of that in Samir’s talk or in anything I have or would ever say. It is actually something I strongly oppose. Most everyone here would agree that it is a problem these days.

I can’t speak for the Emergent Village, but I think this type of engagement is exactly why EV exists. So that people like you and me can find some bit of agreement and celebrate our shared journey of following “the way of Jesus” even though we disagree about metaphysical things like the nature of God or heaven and hell.

I don’t see myself or Samir “meddling with scripture”. I can’t speak for him (never met him) but I see myself and others that frequent this site as attempting to undo the problems from past “meddling” which have resulted in this type of interpretation that you are making. We want to get back to the original context without all the foreign doctrines that have been imposed on top of the texts themselves. I actually view your approach as completely out of context from its origins. But I respect your right to interpret it as you see fit, just don’t confuse your interpretation of the bible with “The Bible”. Exegesis is the process of discovering the original meanings of texts by reading the texts in their original context.

I study the Bible in the original Greek if I need clarification.
That way, you can’t be accused of being led down the wrong path.

And I didn’t hear anything about “me centered-ness” in Samir either, its just that it is the prevailing view in the US and UK

That is probably why we are all here on this site because we all agree that the prevailing view on Christianity is missing the mark.

Dude, you have a copy of Bible in its original form! I didn’t know they existed. You could be wealthy.

lol
yeh, and its got all the disciples autographs!
he he

aj

I’m intrigued. You said this:

I tend to live under the authority of scripture rather than imposing my view on it though.

The Scriptures, as they stand, always need to be interpreted. They simply cannot “speak for themselves” without us coming to the text with a certain interpretative lens. For example, to read the words “Jesus died for you” need to be interpreted – what does it mean for Jesus to die for us. Some see this verse as speaking of penal substitutionary atonement, other see it through a Christus Victor model. Both are interpretations of the text. Texts always need to be interpreted in order to have meaning – both in the past, as well as in the present. Therefore, you might need to qualify what you mean by not “imposing your view” upon the Scriptures.

Second, about authority. What gives a certain text authority? Where is the locus of the authority of a text? I would argue that it does not have intrinsic authority as it stands, but has authority becauase of the role it has played in the community of faith. This principle is what is at play in the canonization process of texts. When looking at a text, the community makes a decision about authority based upon a myriad of substantive criteria. There were many texts that were embraced as authoritative by the early church fathers which did not make it into the canon. The Scriptures, as we have them, are completely authoritative because they have been recieved as authoritative texts from previous faith communities. When the Scriptures themselves speak of their authority it is always in relation to their function. Ther Scriptures are authoritative because God is authoritaitve – they speak of His authority.

great points here – we could spend loads of time discussing these – but I’ll be brief.

1. The Bible claims authority for itself in several places – it says of itself that they are the very words of God. God-breathed/exhaled (2 Tim 3:16). There are other refs to which support this.

2. When I see a verse, I can tell what it means by the use of the context and what the weight of evidence in the Bible says. So you can’t take verses out of context.

You use the example of “Jesus died for you” and what exactly does this mean. It COULD mean many things to many people. But the rest of scripture fills out what that actually means. It tells us that “he died as a ransom for many”. In John 17 Jesus prays before his death and tells us loads about just what his death will accomplish. In Romans it tells that “whilst we were yet sinners, Christ died for us”

You get my drift.
You can’t take one verse and load it with your own interpretation. Scripture is its own interpreter – context and other scriptures.

I would try not to take one verse in isolation.

I hope that my ramblings are making some sense!

sorry, I wish to qualify something I said
I said that “I can tell what a verse means….etc etc”
That sounds really big-headed, I apologise for that, I sometimes haven’t a clue what it means! Then its time to delve a bit deeper!
Cheers

First let me say that I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this sermon and then reading the discussion thereafter. I find it difficult, often, to find people with such differing views have a conversation that isn’t marred by offending and being offended. It’s nice to find something different here.

AJ, I have a question. You said in response to Mike and Jamie, “The Bible claims authority for itself in several places – it says of itself that they are the very words of God. God-breathed/exhaled (2 Tim 3:16). There are other refs to which support this.”

What about the fact that these claims (which are definitely in there, you’re right) were made before the Bible that we have today was actually decided upon. I think that’s part of what Mike and Jamie were/was talking about. There have definitely been groups of PEOPLE that have decided what particular books make up the authoritative, God-breathed Bible. Are we certain to think that other books have no instruction from God?

Hi! I dont know a lot about theology or doctrine. But I can say this! Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to God, He is God,(for those who want to debate what this would mean…. I am not really into strong theological debate!!! The basis of the Gospel is simple!! Jesus, who is God, came down to live on earth, became human, lived among us and died to bring us back to God! He is alive today and we can know Him!!! That is it… FINITO! I know He is alive.. I know Him deeper than I know even my own family!!! THE GOSPEL IS NOT MEANT TO BE INTELLECTUALISED, THEOLOGICALLY DEBATED!!!! Jesus, who He is, His divinity, ... is the one unquestionable. undebatable fact!!! You either say He is the Only Way to God or you dont!!! It is that simple!!!!

This thread is such a great example of why Christianity gets a bad wrap. How do you expect anyone to take our collective faith seriously when our discussions are filled with people that are “confident” that these doctines are bullet proof but then they start their defense with some comment like “I don’t know much about the subject but I’m sure I’m right”. That is harmful. The only people that talk that way are people that have not put in the time to study our religion and our sacred scripture. Spouting cliche phrases doesn’t help our cause here. Renouncing wisdom is rejecting the LOGOS that the author of John’s gospel tells us was “in the beginning… and became flesh and dwelt among us in the person of Jesus”. Rejecting wisdom is rejecting the aspect of God that was incarnated in Jesus.

If you are going to discuss theology then read a few books from various points of view so that you have the language at your disposal to help the conversation. If you are not here to add to the conversation then why are you here? Let’s work together to “flesh out the widsom of God just as Jesus did”. Let’s not make our faith a religion for dummies.

To: Danutz
You can not be a bliever in Jesus Christ and still be in Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. These groups and others do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God. To them, Jesus was just a nice teacher. Jesus will not be one of many. He is the only One. Also, if all those other things you mentioned don’t matter, why did God include them in His Word? kim

Samir’s Logic:
1.If you believe in Narnia, you can’t believe that any where else could possibly exist.
2.In order to identify with those who don’t believe in Narnia, we must admit that the wardrobe could lead to somewhere else.
3.People who believe that the wardrobe leads to Narnia are not progressive.
4.People who have experienced Narnia for themselves must all be idol worshipers.
5.People who are tired of telling our world about Narnia are all “losers.”
6.If you are truly humble, you will believe that the wardrobe leads somewhere that isn’t Narnia.
7.Narnia is a westrocentric concept.
8.Aslan is still away, and His power can not penetrate our world from where He is.
9.Aslan is a tame lion.
(Mr. Tumnus: [of Aslan] He’s not a tame lion. Lucy Pevensie: No… but he’s good)
10. Those people who have experienced Alsan first hand have sucked all of the Aslan out of Narnia.

I want to be there and see Samir’s face when his hand first grabs Narnian soil. When he pushes through the heavy fur coats, and doesn’t just talk about Narnia, but sees it for himself. When he feels the warm breath of the most benevolent predator. When Samir can rest at the feet of Aslan, nestled in Narnian grass. Samir’s logical constraints will melt like the snow under Aslan’s paw. Press through Samir, I think that you are ready.

Excuse me Danutz…. a religion for dummies?!!!!

For your information, I do have a honours degree in English literature!!! I am not a dummy….... I am here because I am standing up for what I believe in….. faith in Jesus Christ and Him alone. The whole point about the real Christianity is it supposed to be a real, living, faith in a PERSON… not a theology, a doctrine or anything else. I have as much right to be here as you have…. and my “contribution” to the discussion is to throw in the radical point that it is JESUS alone that Christianity is about. He himself said “Thankyou, Father, that you have hidden these things from the wise, and revealed them to the foolish!!! You DO NOT have to have a degree in theology to be a Christian, you just have to know that Jesus Christ is real, He is God, and is alive today. Sorry if you cant see that!!!

By the way Danutz. If you want to enter into intellectual debate…. you loved the statement

“Would you rather be a person of another religion that has accepted Christ in substance or a Christian in name only.”

How can a person from another religion accept Christ in substance? Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth and The Life, No-one comes to the Father but by me.”

How can anyone, who is from another religion, acceot Jesus Christ under these terms. You cannot be a follower of Islam, or Buddhism and believe Jesus Christ is the Only Way to God!!!

I’m deeply sorry that I communicated poorly and gave you the wrong impression. The nature of electronic medium for debate often creates some mistakes in communication. I certainly didn’t say you were a dummy. I respect your views.

I just wanted to point to your own position which started with:

“I don’t know alot about theology or doctrine….”

When you say that, then you insist that you have the only possible answer to a theological question it doesn’t seem sincere and it may likely cause people to view our collective faith (Christianity) as a religion which devalues wisdom and discourse. How can you be so absolutely certain about things which you admit you know little about?

My guess is that you DO know alot about theology and doctrine, but it may be YOUR OWN theology and doctrine which you are familiar with and you are shutting down the idea that other views can add value to the conversation. The EC is a great place to learn about other views. I’m learning all the time and I’m constantly forced to readdress my views in light of more knowledge. I’m suggesting that you shouldn’t close down other ideas because you are so certain of your own.

To your next point:

“How can a person from another religion accept Christ in substance?”

This is simple. The “substance” of Christ is the thing that he was most passionate about. His passion (sorry mel gibson) was NOT his ability to endure a painful death. His passion was peace and justice (God’s Kindom on Earth). Those are the things he was most passionate about and which caused him to be killed by those that opposed peace and justice. Anyone that follows after those same ideals is also following the heart of Jesus and therefore they are accepting the substance of his message and his life when they accept his values.

Beliefs about particular supernatual ideas like a virgin birth or literal resurrection are not the “substance” of Jesus. They are the “substance” of a later organized Christianity. I’m not opposed to those beliefs/myths/legends but I don’t see them as part of the true substance of Jesus’ message and his life.

I forgot to specifically address your reference to the line which the author of John’s Gospel uses:

“I am the Way, the Truth and The Life, No-one comes to the Father but by me.”

The Gospel of John is so beautiful because it has such woderful poetic metaphorical language. It does require a little more “unpacking” but it is worth the effort.

Here the author makes it clear that for him and his now more established Christian community (late 1st early 2nd century), Jesus has become so much more than just a man. He is the most wonderful representation of the “way” which they have chosen to live. His enduring words give them light, and his powerful stories provide the truth which is the basis for thier subversive anti-imperialistic campaign.

The “way” of Jesus is the opposite of the “way” of the empire. Christians are those people that accept this new way or set of values. The author of John’s Gospel understood this as he created these beautiful metaphors to describe Jesus and Paul understood that when he describes the call to die to our own selfish way of life.

Thanks, Danutz, for your reply. I didnt think you were calling me stupid!!!!!

In reply to everything you said, I can only say that my faith is very simple. I am what the media call a “born again Christian”, and I do believe that the essential gospel of Jesus is simple. I personally believe He is the only way anyone can be “saved” (to coin a phrase) and receive eternal life.

There again, I would admit the Church, as a group, has made a pretty ghastly job sometimes of representing this gospel, (especially in it’s attitude toward the “other” (using Salmir’s words). I dont actually “go” to a Church now, as I was so disgusted with the way many people were treated! I really do believe in a gospel of inclusion, rather than exclusion, but there still have to be certain tenents, for me, which are undebatable, and that is the person of Jesus, and His divinity.

I have had Muslim friends in the past, and this may be a bit trite, but my favourite taxi driver is a Muslim. He is a lovely man, and I really like him. Doesnt mean I agree with him, or expect him to agree with me. I still think Jesus is the Only way to God though, and I will tell him that… if it comes up!

When people who believe Jesus is the Only way to God start acting in a way He would have them act, maybe the Church would start appearing in a better light. (I knew one church that would not allow a transvestite to use the women’s toilet. He had to go in the men’s toilet dressed as a woman!!!That is an example of a church who know the truth acting as if they havent got a clue. Can you imagine Jesus banning someone from using the women’s toilet?

Anyway, you may think my faith is over-simplistic, but I have believed this since I was 16years old (I’m 44 now) and still believe it as passionately now as I did then.

Andrea

AH,

I appreciate your thoughts here. To bring all of this full circle and tie it back into Samir’s talk I’d like to ask you the following questions.

If you do believe that “Jesus is the Only way to God”, then what do you mean by “to God”?

Also, do you assume that I (a person that doesn’t believe these unbelievable things like virgin-birth or divine supernatural powers) can have a transformational experience of God? Are you saying that your muslim friend and I are not having valid experiences or have less faith?

If you are saying that your way is the only possible correct belief, then you are telling everyone else they are full of crap. The people in my life that most honorably represent “Jesus’ way” are people that don’t believe any of these strange things “about him”. They do however agree with him.

I fully understand that you do have a belief system that helped you, but have you ever lived a day with my beliefs or any others? How can you know that any other system of beliefs are valid transformational experiences if you haven’t tried them?

i think there is a scriptural basis for rejecting christ in name, but accepting him in substance. the Father who told the two boys to go work in the field. one said yes and didnt, the other said no and did. can one say no to christ and then go do his work anyway. clothe,feed, love? if not, why give this parable?

Hello all,

after reading this thread I had to go back and listen to Samir’s sermon once again to refresh my memory. I fear there’s been a lot of misunderstanding as to what he’s said—the only thing I could say to those whom (I fear) may have that misunderstanding is to go back and listen to it again. His talk is very deep and thoughtful, and it’s easy to get hung up on superficial terms or concepts that may strike people wrongly at first. So I encourage people not to make too harsh a judgement on Samir just because he may seem unbiblical, unrealistic, etc. I think he’s very biblical and very thoughtful, judging by both the scriptural and real-life examples he uses to supplement his talk. If those seem too small for some people, I think it may be a matter of interpretation rather than lack of substance. Interpretation will always be involved in using scripture, whether you go to the original Greek or not (one has to interpret Greek as well as English).

But what I would have to offer is on the subject of accepting Christ in name versus accepting Christ is substance. They are not the same thing. I think this is the biggest part that discontented some people regarding Samir’s talk. For instance:

aj: ““Would you rather be a person of another religion that has accepted Christ in substance or a Christian that has accepted Christ in name only?”

Thats one of the phrases that just didn’t make any sense at all. Just tell me how you can “accept Christ in substance” and yet reject the name of Christ.”

and,

ah: “How can a person from another religion accept Christ in substance? Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth and The Life, No-one comes to the Father but by me.””

This text box is far too small for us to have a good discussion about this in-depth. It could be endless. But I think it is very possible to accept Christ in name, then forget about Him in substance. To illustrate, I’m going to try my hand at a parable (God willing). Listen carefully:

There once was a boy named William. William was a Christian and the son of a local church’s deacon. Everyone knew William and knew that he was a Christian—he professed his faith often and boldly to his friends in school and his Church. He hardly ever had a conversation with someone without mentioning Jesus and saying that he was the “Way, Truth, and the Life.” Because of this, he sometimes lost friends because they didn’t like what he said. But William considered this their loss, not his.

Now there was another boy who went to the same school. His name was Borsch. Borsch was a Muslim who had moved to the US with his family. Borsch was a diligent Muslim, but was often shy about this. He studied the Koran deeply and was convinced that Islam was a religion of love and hope for those who followed it. But he often kept this to himself. Instead of professing Islam as the “one true faith” as his parents would, he tried to show his faith to his friends through actions. People knew that his parents were very fervent about the faith, so they became scared of his family, fearing their motives. But Borsch tried to relieve this fear by showing himself to be good because of the faith he followed.

Now William knew Borsch and often preached to Borsch. William told Borsch whenever he saw him that Jesus was the “Way, Truth, and the Life.” Hardly a conversation went between them without William professing, often loudly, that Islam was a false religion that did not believe in Jesus, and that there would be punishment for those who did not follow His way. Borsch never argued with William, often saying nothing, knowing that if he said anything, people would fear him, because they knew his parents were very fervent about Islam.

Now, because William’s father was a wealthy man and a deacon, William would often recieve many gifts and money on the holidays. William soon became infatuated with all the gifts, but his father continued to give him gifts because he professed Christianity so well, and hoped that he would do so more. William would take some of the money and tell his friends that, if they went to Church with him, he would give them some of the money. William’s circle of friends grew and the new friends came to Church. They became saved. His father considered this good. However, when William’s friends went back to school, they would revert to their old ways. With the new money, some of them began to buy drugs on school grounds, and they would joke about Church. William still hung out with them and still gave them money, because they were professing Jesus as the only way.

Meanwhile, Borsch continued to live his faithful life in peace and quiet, helping people when he could. His parents, however, started to be investigated by the police because they professed the faith too much. Some rumors began that they were terrorists. Borsch’s circle of friends grew less. He was taunted by the “Christians” at school, because he was not part of the “good guys”. Borsch would only say that Islam was a religion of peace and that, if his parents were terrorists, they were not true Muslims. He continued to be a source of help for people in need while the “Christians” would hang out only with each other, taunting everyone else for not being “saved”. William and his friends would beat up Borsch after school, shouting at him to accept Christ or go to hell. Borsch would often go home with bruises and cuts. But when his parents asked him about it, he would tell them that he just played too hard. He feared that his parents might say something to him about jihad and defending the Islamic faith.

William began using drugs with his friends because they were “Christians”, and they all still went to Church. Everyone at Church praised William for saving so many people. Many from the school came to Church, but none of them actually had Christ in their hearts. They still acted the old way outside of Church. Borsch saw this and decided he would never become a Christian because William was the only kind of Christian he knew, and Islam taught that Jesus was a divine prophet anyway, but Christians had perverted his message. Islam’s account of Christianity seemed to be right. So Borsch still tried to live an upright life by Islamic law, helping people and giving to the poor as needed.

The police, however, suddenly arrested Borsch’s parents. The police said they had links to terrorist cells. So Borsch’s parents were incarcerated until the charges could be proven, and Borsch himself was kept under surveilance. Borsch continued to live his upright life, praying five times a day, according to the Law and submitting himself to God, despite the cost, and despite the beatings at school. He prayed fervently to God to give him strength and to be a light to the world, but William made threats against him, telling him he would call him a terrorist if he didn’t go with him to Church.

Now, here is the lesson of the parable: who was more Christlike—William, or Borsch? Borsch lost everything because of his faith, but refused to believe in Christianity because William’s words did not match his actions. William was the only Christian Borsch knew, and so never believed in the Jesus William preached. But Borsch always lived out a life of peace and kindness, believing this is what God wanted him to do.

This is an extreme example. But when Samir talks about “finding God in the other,” I think what he means is that Christianity is not the sole arbiter for Christ’s teachings. Christ can exist outside of the walls of the Church and outside of the Church’s doctrines because those doctrines are human constructions (even if they are based in scripture). Who are we to deny the power of God to produce Christ-like goodness in Islam, Buddhism, or Hinduism? Do we have authority over God? Jesus himself said to Nicodemus God “is like the wind—He goes where he wishes.” It is not our place to judge what God does outside nor inside the Church. The “true” Christian life, and the true Christian, is not someone who wears the name of Christ, but one who follows His ways. Borsch acted like a better Christian than William did, so Borsch was, essentially, more Christ-like, even though he would never call himself a follower of Christ (because that would make him look more like William; William called himself a follower of Christ, but was not Christ-like). If we understand this, then I think we can understand a little more about what Samir is saying.

My apologies to everyone for the lengthiness of this post.

My favorite part of Samir’s talk (or one of): Jesus died for something bigger than himself. Therefore, bigger than God? I remember the first question I struggled with as a very young child after hearing creation stories—”But where did God come from?” I am a firm believer in the power of God and the love of Christ, but I am first to admit that there is so, so much we as humans simply don’t know yet. The modern American evangelical Christian (for this is what I know best) seems to be distracted from the work of God by trying to “save” souls through some verbal decision. Personally, my assumed future in heaven makes no difference in my life today. What does is knowing that God is in and around me at all times in the here and now. (and dare I say, in everyone—those of any faith are the ones who have woken up to that fact)

I think questions of who is “saved” and who isn’t only serve to alienate and distract. Samir’s more recent podcast on Courage speaks (to me) of what is truly important. And what it means to be truly missional.

Here’s a challenge for you “emergents”. Do a sermon on Jesus’ saying that if you don’t believe in Him, you will die in your sins. Turn THAT into some hippie-dippy Kumbaya sermon. Really, man, Enron CEOS? You’re kidding right? What does it feel like to be part of the preparation for Antichrist? He’s gonna love you guys. Repent and believe the Word of God while you still can.

David – Don’t be such a troll.

LOL – those last two posts (40 and 41) were a great ending to a very interesting conversation. I really enjoyed reading everyone’s perspectives. I particularly found Daniel’s parable very helpful. Thank you for that.

I’ll be honest with everyone here. I’m searching for the truth. It seems like we (i.e. humanity) are more interested in finding God and the truth about Him then God is at revealing Himself to us. Therefore, it seems like He is not that concerned with what we would call “truth”. I mean, if He was then there would be no mistaking it. It would be sound-proof. Because of this I find it okay to beleive in whatever route you want to as long as that route centers around what we already know as “true” found throughout creation (order, design beauty, love, etc.). All roads lead to Rome – right. And Jesus is as good a road as any. God help me and show mercy on me if I’m wrong – but then again, if I was wrong why doesn’t God just tell me so that I can be right. Which again begs the question – does God really care about what route we take to get to Him. Just love God and Love People.

Dear Michael Sullivan: God has indeed revealed Himself in the Bible. If someone TRULY seeks Him, they will find Him. The primary attitude (Old Testament and New Testament) must be one of awe of God;s holiness and an understanding of our sinfulness. The tax collector in Jesus’ parable who beat his breast and said “God, have mercy on me, a sinner” and was justified should be our attitude. The neo-hippies in this movement deny that. God will not reject a broken and contrite heart. We simply CANNOT earn our forgiveness by good works and that is why Jesus, God in human flesh, died to pay our price. He made it clear a number of times in Scripture. Read John 6:28-29.”Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Agreed. If the Bible is True. (I’ve used these same lines of thoughts in the past myself when I used to witness to people). But this only brings us back to – why doesn’t God tell us the truth if He is so concerned with us adherning to “that truth”. ( Again, there is a difference between God telling me/people and people who believe a certain way telling me/people that God wants me/people to believe this or that).

My main concern is the lack of concern of God’s part to “speak the truth”. Which again, has lead me to believe that He isn’t really that concerned with believing “this” or “that”. I’m actaully unsure if He is even concerned of people “believing” period.

I wish to God it was just that easy. And yeah, I agree – sometimes these Emergent Blogs tend to be about patting themselves on their intellectual back then about desiring to seek God and knowing the truth (that is if there is a truth out there).

I just wish God would clear up everything and the truth known. I just wish God cared about it as much as I did.

And please don’t say – “the resurrection proves it”. They have found the bones of Jesus and his family. I mean, if God wanted to make Himself Known then surely He would dismiss this finding as a lie – if it was a lie. I mean, come on – I would and so would you and so would everyone else.

Alas – it just leaves me to beleive that God isn’t really that concerned about what we believe.

Man, I wish I wrong.

Wow! What an amazing sermon and what an amazing series of posts.

There’s so much we don’t know.

Is the Bible the exclusive picture of God?

Is God availble to those outside the Abrahamic faiths?

What exactly is the “good news of the gospel.”

What did Jesus say was the most impotant thing? Did Jesus teach ANY doctrine?

How do we determine “inspiration” of scripture?

What happens when we use the Bible as a fetish or magic charm like a crystal ball.

Samir’s brave sermon asks the most fundamental of questions.

Finally, how do we best live in the space we’re in?

One planet, one family…

When will we explore the truth’s God has embedded in our universe and in our lives.

Learning to risk love is when we start to live.

In a world aflame with religious hatred, the time has come to look at the nature of Faith itself from the widest of perspectives. It’s time for fresh dialogue and a new faith.

Bravo, Samir.

Hi. It may be to late to reply to a post here now, as there have been other new subjects posted. However, I feel I have to reply to Danutz’s post on March 1 (sorry, I’ve been a bit busy lately, hope Danutz is still reading!!)

Firstly, I do not say that “my belief” is the only way. It may be difficult for people to see this who arent from the same viewpoint, but everything to me, and to the many Christians I know, is centred around Jesus Christ. Before I became a Christian I hated religion. I didnt ” accept a faith”, “adopt a belief”, choose Christianity over Buddhism”, I accepted Jesus Christ. I am not saying I know any better, or am any better, than Buddhists or Muslims. I am saying the only thing that matters is Jesus Christ. Again, the only way “to God” is Jesus Christ. (By this I mean the only way to have a deep personal relationship with God the Father, is to believe in Jesus, his death and resurrection. I cannot judge anyone else, whether Muslim or whatever their belief. I would certainly not say they were rubbish. But I believe in this world that is changing all the time, and shifting and full of uncertainities, Jesus is the “Way, the Truth and The LIfe”. Again, these terms are debatable….but Jesus is the centre of everything I believe in.

(You say, Danutz, you do not believe in “unbelievable” things like the Virgin Birth. That is what faith is all about, believing the unbelievable. The bottom line again is Jesus. If I thought about the Virgin birth or the resurrection clinically/intellectually, yes they are difficult to believe in. But I know Jesus Christ, I believe in Him and through Him, I believe in the Virgin Birth. Any faith worth its salt believes in the miraculous. God can push the boundaries of this temporal, physical life we live down here and make miracles happen. If He couldnt, He wouldnt be God.

Andrea

WOW!

I’ve listened to the sermon and read the posts. And I still can’t believe.

Does everyone here know that the bones of Jesus have been found. There is NO Resurrection. Thus, your faith is fantasy.

I mean, if you are okay with that – then go ahead. and I thought this emergent thing was a house of Intellects. I guess I was wrong. It seems like you guys are more interested in sounding smart and patting yourselves and the back.

But then again – this group doesn’t put much weight in the concept of “truth”.

I haven’t seen any discussion of the verse that Samir uses as the basis of his sermon, about the people who worship the unknown god in Acts. It seems to me that the rest of what Paul says to these worshippers lays out the answer to the question pretty clearly. Here is the Scripture:

Acts 17
24”The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, a though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 nd He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having etermined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29”Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30”Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”

To me, this says that we don’t create God how we want him to be (i.e. all paths lead to God) but we come to him through Jesus, whom He sent and provided proof through the resurrection that He was the savior. Paul seemed to be saying, I’m telling you how to get to the real God, who overlooked your ignorance in the past but now you have no excuse once you hear about Jesus, because He’s laid it out very plainly for you through Him.”

Anyone have other interpretations of this passage? It seems very clear to me.

Also, as an example of God speaking truth to us, how about this (and there are many more to reference):

John 6:28-29 Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?”

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

To Andrea, aj, David, Loren… et al:

And what of the lives of all the people who were born and died before Christ? Are they forever damned? Or do you want the death of Jesus to be somehow retroactive(!) even if His name remains unknown?

Did the crucifixion of Christ change something about God? Appease Him with His demand for blood? Or did it merely reveal the truth of God’s mercy, forgiveness and love that always existed?

Is salvation exclusively available only through Christianity? Or is salvation always a gift of Jesus whether or not you know his name?

Is the Bible written by men and edited by committee over 1,500 years the sole truth about God?

Or like Tyson, is your faith crushed by a TV show about the alleged residue in the alleged Tomb of Jesus?

Maybe it’s not about Christianity. Maybe it’s not about salvation.

We are all believers. In something—whether stated or even contemplated.

The real question is: How then do we live?

(Need scripture? Read Galations 3.)

Andrea,

I’m still checking in occassionally. Thanks for the response to my comment.

You said some contradictory things. I think you will recognize it if you “hear” the words from the perspective of a person outside your own head.

You said: “I cannot judge anyone else, whether Muslim or whatever their belief. I would certainly not say they were rubbish.”

then you said: “Any faith worth its salt believes in the miraculous.”

Is my faith which is NOT built on “belief of the miraculous” rubbish or just not worth its salt? Met any buddhist monks lately? How does your faith compare? Feeling salty?

There is a big misconception that what Samir is talking about or what I believe as a Generous Orthodoxy is the idea “that all paths lead to God”. That is wrong. The correct way to view this is: “There is only one path but many people have described this one path with different metaphors and language”. The path is transformation of ourselves and our world from self-centered nature (sin,shempa,hell, etc.)to other-centered nature (salvation, heaven, prajna, Christ nature, Buddha nature).

Jesus’ way is the ONLY way. Agreeing with him (believing him not believing things about him) is “the way”. He wasn’t the only one to tell us about it. The Gospel of John says that the way (the logos/wisdom/knowledge of the way) was in the beginning well before Jesus. Then the logos became flesh as Jesus embodied this logos as he spoke it and lived it.

Jesus also happens to be the way for me because he is how I found God and began a transformational process. He is my salvation because without him I wouldn’t have a way to transformation. But we shouldn’t confuse our own understanding as the ONLY descriptive language of this way.

I’m Still amazed.

I guess facts make no difference. I guess this group is truely about the “fantsy” (i.e. FAITH).

Or maybe everyone here is like Robin – who can make a general spinjob on the facts THAT THEY HAVE FOUND THE BONES OF JESUS. There was no resurrection.

God forbid that facts actaully get in the way of what you believe.

Talk about an Inconvenient Truth.

Wasn’t it Paul in 1 Cor. 15, “if Christ has not been raised, then empty (too) is our preaching; empty, too, your faith”.

Yeah – don’t let the facts get in the way of what you believe. At least Paul was honest enough to face this fact.

How radical is your Christology? Can you imagine that Christ is truly everywhere, or is he smaller than that? Is Christ omni-present, or only present where people think and act like you do? Those are the questions we must ask. I loved Samir’s message. But, I do not lessen the salvific work of Christ. It is our responsibility to name where Christ is working, to be witnesses for those who cannot recognize it. So we must do mission, but not for the sake of saving poeple from Hell, rather for the sake of ushering in the Kingdom of God here on earth as it is in heaven. We Christians need to get Hell off of our minds and get the Kingdom of God in it! That is what Samir’s message said to me. Christ is everywhere, working to bring his Kingdom, it’s your job to point it out.

Tyson,

You have invoked James Cameron’s documentary a couple times now as if it is completely verified fact. I do not fall in with many Chistians who are rushing to discredit the findings by any means possible, but as an academic (and a general skeptic) I am not willing to accept the word of a single voice on any topic. Fringe science is sometimes shown to be true, but only after rigorous testing and validation. Let’s allow time to filter out the sensationalism before we try to prove points (or base faiths) on it.

And to skip slightly back on track, Samir’s sermon was a wonderful breath of fresh air when one realizes that collective wisdom can sometimes be purer than the ideologies from which it comes.

Catch you later,
Brian

I legitamitly would like to know what Samir was refering to when he said Jesus died for something bigger than himself. He made it sound like it was something Jesus said. I really just can’t think of where this is. Please, if anyone understood specifically what he was talking about, I would appreciate a response.

To Tyson

I am sorry I am late replying to your posts…. but I have to say I found them extremely disturbing. Excuse me… they have found the bones of Jesus, have they? Wow… if they had, this would not be in one man’s film… it would be front page news of every newspaper in every country!!! Every television company, newspaper, media of any sort would be clamouring for it. Do you see that happening? No. Because it is one man’s conjecture. But dont let those facts get in the way of you believing the truth, Tyson.

You claim one man’s ideas to be the truth, yet seem to laugh at Christians for believing they have the truth. I not only have personal experience in my own life behind my faith, but also the lives of millions of other people. You are willing to call all these people idiots and believe the words of one man? Who would I call gullible….. not me!!! At least Danutz had respect for other people’s belief. If Jesus never lived, never rose from the dead, then millions of people down through the ages are not only stupid, they have been completely fooled by a complete myth. But of course, they must all be wrong and you and Stephen Spielberg must be right. As must be the hundreds of people who have died horrible, agonising deaths for the sake of Jesus… they must be wrong, of course. When Paul said “If Christ be not raised from the dead then empty is our preaching…” he said that because he was absolutely convinced Jesus Christ had risen from the dead!!! He too spent many years in prison and then was beheaded for his faith. But then he must be a complete idiot, mustnt he… because according to you, he was believing in a myth, a fantasy.

Of course, you are free to believe what you want. But as I have said, at least Danutz can disagree in a way that respects other people, not belittles them!!!

Andrea, I appreciate your reponse to some of the more harsh comments here. I think you have to ignore some of the people that come here just to bash the whole idea of conversation and exploration in good faith. There seems to be an effort to disrupt the conversation.

I firmly believe there is more that just the two extreme views here: A)The bible is fact or B)The bible is a lie and every one that believes it has been the victim of a hoax.

I opt for C)The bible and its legendary stories are wonderfully truth-filled myths. Us modern people tend to devalue myth as-if it was something less than “historical truth”. Actually there is more truth found in myths than in most history books. The bible can very very true and we can take it VERY seriously without taking its stories as literal-historical facts. It does not lessen scripture, actually it increases its value because it no longer leaves it as something which is a struggle to believe.

Whatever you believe about the “fact” behind the stories, the important thing is to uncover what the stories mean. Their real value is the “more than literal meaning”. What does it mean to claim Jesus as Lord? How is that different if you see the miraculous stories as facts or legend? I argue that the either view is valid and life changing as long as you accept the meanings as very serious.

The first step to learning to converse with people from different denominations and even various religions is to step back from the myths and doctirns of your own faith and evaluate them for deeper meanings.

Danutz,
Let me ask you this, If you and I were playing a friendly poker game and after going through the betting and discarding we laid our hands down, and you had a royal flush! I laid my hand down and said I had a royal flush as well but upon further inspection I only had 5 cards of different suits and various numbers and royalty. Who would win the hand and get the money? I claim the truth and so do you but we can’t both be right. In the wild west we might have pulled our revolvers and shot each other to determine who was right, or in another era would have dueled…neither of those things would determine truth however. I know that there is alot of doctrine and theology that people use to bash others over the head, almost shaming them into believing. That sucks and is something to be avoided at all costs. But there must be truth and something that claims to be true must either be true or false. Truth is very useful when it serves our purposes, but in this day and age becomes very hard to affirm when it goes against what we want. I know you have a “bible” background to fall back on, so I would just encourage you to re-examine how do we know truth and what constitutes truth. If it is just my opinion versus yours, then we will never find truth(i.e. poker analogy), but if there is some solid truth somewhere then we must forsake everything to have it and pursue it with all our might.

Did Jesus consider the Bible “wonderfully truth-filled myths”? No! Neither should we.

Thank Micah for that analogy. Yes, anyone can bend stories to create a truth. My experience with the bible isn’t a “background” or past influence. I have a deep love for it and it is itegral to my present faith. It is the most important book I own as it is how I came to know the truths that I have chosen to live by.

The biggest problem of Christian Theology since the enlightenment is this insistence that the bible’s truths are in its historical accurateness. When we do that we miss it’s real truth. People will always fight about that history and the EC is helping many Evangelicals (me included) get past that surface level truth.

Samir does a great job of pointing to the deeper more worthwhile truths in scripture which should be things that allow people of different faith traditions to unite. Only when we get stuck on the surface level of our individual mythologies do we have to battle about which myths are more “true”. The deep issues are always about systematic injustice and character flaws not doctrine and belief.

Once this mental light comes on and you see scripture through this metaphorical lens you realize you have been looking for truth in the wrong place. I suspect this is similar to the symbolic light which Paul uses to describe his awakening and repentance experience. He had this experience prior to any scripture or any doctrines about Jesus were formed.

Is the “truth” found in Paul’s converstion about how the only way to become a follower of Jesus is to fall to the ground in literal blindness? Or is it that we we need to change our path and “see the light”?

Is the truth found in the garden of eden myth the “facts” that the world was made in 6 days and sin started by a conversation with a talking snake? Or is the real truth about our awe of creation, our reach for explanations, and that we are in a constant battle with selfishness, greed, and pride as a barrier to community?

Is the truth of resurrection the literal factualness of an empty tomb? Or is the the real truth that God says “yes” to the life and message of Jesus despite the fact that the emperors of this world said “no”. It says a life of sacrifice produces eternal value despite the immediate persecution of the empire.

The question is not “are the bible stories true?” The important quesion is – What are these truth-filled stories telling us?

David, Jesus seemed to be a big fan of wonderfully truth-filled myths. He quoted the prophetic stories of the OT often and he told many of them himself. Most of his own teaching used this technique. Is it any surprise that his followers would teach about him in the same way?

The bible is filled with beautiful prophetic imagination.

So I’m late… hope the party has not left already!

Here are a few ideas from the sermon.

I grew up in Maryland, USA and I currently live outside of the United States. I have learned a lot about the USA by not being in the USA all the time. The more I get to know other cultures & experience other countries the more I see the good and the bad in the USA. This is not wrong, but a healthy critique. I think Samir is talking about how sometimes when we get out of our Christian santuaries we can learn more about what it means to “love your neighbor” (etc.) from those who do not claim to follow Jesus. We are not the only people who love. We may however have a very long line of spiritual inbreeding that has led to corruption of the original idea of love. Maybe we can rediscover how to love, by looking beyond our walls, beyond our country (or countries).

I do not think Samir is promoting the idea that all religions go together, or end at the same smiley place. Rather I think he is addressing how we can learn, genuinely learn, how we should live out our faith in Christ from people who are not in our spiritual ‘herd’.

There are a large number of voices in the Emergent Conversation, and they do not all sing the same song, but that is OK. I believe that Eternal life comes through Faith in Christ and that the salvation that Christ offers has effects in this world and not just in Heaven. Others will not agree with this. I know that. But I am not here to argue this. These debates have carried on for centuries and I feel are not the focus of this group of people who gather in the EV conversation.

Thank you Samir,