Remarkable all right and dead wrong! Why is McLaren trying to re-write gods word if fit his own world view! God help us if this is what is where to church is going!!

So you acknowledge that one’s world view affects how one reads and interprets God’s word. I wonder what affect your world view has had on how you read and interpret God’s word?

My world view was changed by God’s Word. I changed from an agnostic to a theist, and from an evolutionist to a Creationist. So God’s Word was not interpreted by my world view. I think the Holy Spirit had something to do with that.I let the Word teach me.

Friends, we do not approach Scripture without a worldview. You realize this, right? It is a feedback loop. One affects the other. Our experience/background/cultural narrative informs how we see Scripture, and vice versa.

To say otherwise is to entertain delusion and suggests an overconfidence in our own finite abilities. I know you think you are suggesting you have a great confidence in God’s word- which to you is akin to saying you have a great confidence in God. But in reality, you cannot separate your own limitations from the message you are receiving. Yes, God has given us revelation through His Word, illuminated by His Spirit. But this does not overwrite, or nullify, our human limitations in discerning the message. All that is to say: don’t be so quick to dismiss Brian’s reading of Scripture. Yes, he is a finite human being, capable of error. But so are you. Be careful where you place your confidence.

Amen, Darren. It is pure arrogance to assume you can remove your experiences and background from how you understand things, even Scripture. Take Brian McLaren out of it – if we could all read the same Scripture and have a perfect understanding, why do we have different understandings of predestination? Why do we have all the denominations? Because although the Bible is perfect, we are fallen human beings with our own biases and worldviews. We read the Bible through lenses. To assume you have a perfect understanding of Scripture and every one who disagrees with your understanding throughout history is wrong, seems very self-righteous to me. Sure, Brian has a worldview that informs his understanding of Scripture, he would admit that. But so do you, and so did Martin Luther, and so does Billy Graham. The point is to try and understand each other’s perspectives in order to be able to see past some of our own biases and see through other people’s lenses as well.

Noone is saying that they understand the Bible perfectly. But just like, we can clearly see what the main point of McLaren’s books even through our worldview, we can clearly see the gospel in the Bible. This is the ancient gospel that the church has held to for hundreds and hundreds of years, through schism and war. And Brian preaches a different gospel, which, as Paul says, is no gospel at all.

David,

Are you an evangelical? If so then your understanding of the gospel is in the minority- both in terms of absolute numbers in the world today, and in terms of historicity.

If you are an evangelical, then you have to realize that your particular understanding of the gospel has been around for several centuries- at the most.

That leaves out 1600 years of Christian history to account for. What do you do with that? So you simply assume that everyone previous to the 16th century was wrong- but somehow you and your segment of the Church have got it right?

Seriously, does that seem reasonable to you?

These are some of my beliefs about the gospel: Christ is Lord, Christ died on the cross in our place as a sacrifice for our sins and to free us from death and the devil, Christ was raised from the dead, those that deny Christ will condemned to a terribly real hell, and those that believe in him will bear good fruit in this life, and have eternal life in heaven.

These beliefs are not “modern.” They are not exclusively evangelical. They are essential facets of the gospel, they are clear in scripture that the Spirit of God himself breathed, and Christians have believed them for almost 2,000 years. And I firmly believe with these brothers and sisters of mine throughout history that these beliefs are gospel.

David, I agree with your beliefs about the Gospel. I really think Brian McLaren would agree with them as well. I especially agree that the first article of the Gospel must be: “Jesus is Lord”.

Yet, even all the statements you just made can be interpreted in many different ways within their respectful boundaries… and they have been interpreted in many different ways in these 2000 years of history. That’s the point some people were trying to make. Nobody is throwing away orthodoxy – we’re just trying to understand what orthodoxy really is.

I must make the point though, that I disagree with the final article of faith you articulated. The New Testament makes it abundantly clear, in my opinion, that we are destined to spend eternity on EARTH in resurrected BODIES. Not as spirits in some ethereal Heaven. I think it is a very dangerous thing to replace the Biblical faith in New Creation and Resurrection with a faith in some kind of Gnostic escapism (i.e. – the so-called “rapture of the Church”).

Again, that’s just the way I read scripture. I could be wrong. This is a conversation.

Excellent points Phillip. Yes, this really is an issue of nuanced understanding; and also an exploration of the fullness of understanding. For instance, many of us in the EC would say that certain “conventional” understandings of the gospel are not wrong, so much as they are truncated; incomplete.

And yes, on life after death, the Bible clearly teaches resurrection to real, physical bodies (bodies that have some special capabilities mind you). N.T. Wright’s the Resurrection of the Son of God is a wonderful, thorough source on this issue.

Hey Darren King, did you go to mid america nazarene college?

Hey Doug,

I went to Trinity Western University in British Columbia. Maybe you’re looking for another Darren King?

Now, after actually reading the book (I had to wait for it to be shipped here from the States) I do want to echo one of the concerns that were raised here: McLaren didn’t mention in the book a general resurrection for all believers – not even once. This eschatological truth which is so central to Paul and to the early creeds, seems to me to be completely ignored.

I found the book to be enjoyable, informative, inspiring and important, but there are many things I don’t quite agree with.

McLaren himself speaks of the importance of eschatology, but I feel he did not present a convincing alternative orthodox eschatology which can replace the it’s-the-end-of-the-world-let’s-all-get-raptured narratives which he (rightfully) criticizes.

Well, I suppose I can’t expect a person to lay out all his theology in one book – but I still found it problematic.

I’m just finishing the book. I found it challenging and it gave me some reason for concern. I am beginning to see the different imbalances he speaks about from a business point of view. He points out some very important points that we should look at. I do not think Brian cares whether we agree with him or not, but that we enter into this conversation. It is within this conversation that lives can be changed, including our own.

I’m just finishing the book. I found it challenging and it gave me some reason for concern. I am beginning to see the different imbalances he speaks about from a business point of view. He points out some very important points that we should look at. I do not think Brian cares whether we agree with him or not, but that we enter into this conversation. It is within this conversation that lives can be changed, including our own.

Allan Spragg

My perspective is that Phillip is making the exact same mistake as Peter. (?)

Evangelicals want to convert everyone to sacrificial-Judaism first, before they want to give them the Gospel. The very first thing the local fundamentalists tell me about the Gospel, is that “we are sinners and doomed to hell for all eternity”. This is not the Gospel. This is ancient Judaism.

In the context of ancient Judaism, Paul’s teachings were paramount to providing them with salvation. Don’t let that be a barrier to the Gospel though, you don’t have to become a Jew before you start following Jesus.

I’m somewhat confused at your comment Hugo. In my comment I didn’t even hint to any soteriological issues, so I’m not sure what you’re accusing me of. (And what Peter are you talking about? St. Peter?)

Also, I don’t see myself as evangelical, per se, nor do I even remotely ascribe to the Augustinian (and completely non-Jewish) paradigm of sin you described.

I do however strongly believe that Jesus’ words and actions must be understood in His Jewish context. If you strip away the Jewishness of the gospel, you strip away the narrative of the gospel, and so you strip away the gospel itself.

That doesn’t mean you need to become Jewish in order to be a disciple of Jesus – both Paul and James were abundantly clear on that. It does mean every Christian needs to be rooted in his Jewish heritage though.

Truth is not timeless – it is embodied in the stories we tell and the stories we live.

The concept of Hell did not even exist in Ancient Judaism. Its a much later theolgicical development.

Just found Brian McLaren’s books this year. Read SECRET MESSAGE OF JESUS and GENEROUS ORTHODOXY and am in the middle of EVERYTHING MUST CHANGE. Thank you Brian for the risks, for the questions, for the conversation. Unless you are reading the primary sources the Bible you are reading has already been interpreted at least once. As you read it, I agree, your experiences and prior teaching is enfluencing how you read/see/hear the particular translation you are reading. Good luck getting it “right”.

My testimony: I choose to believe God exists and I have faith that Jesus Christ is my savior. God helps us receive wisdom from the holy scriptures.
God loves me and I trust that there is “more” after this mortal life. The only way I can please God is to have faith and try to live-out the Golden Rule and love others the best I can.

Pardon me if I intrude into your discussion here, but I only yesterday came upon the term “the emerging church” and I sincerely would like to discuss my simple testimony if anyone is interested.

I think it’s funny that people say that the Bible isn’t true. John 17:17 ”...thy Word is truth”
and those very people live by it. So you guys who don’t believe that you can understand it, you’re basically living a lie. Allen: A conversation never changed anyones life, only the Gospel did. Romans 1:16
And Darren you need to read your Bible. There’s hundreds of references to hell in the Old Testament.
You guys are saying that we need to understand each others views and all that jazz, and all that screams to me is ONE WORLD RELIGION, spoken of in Revelation. Also, in John 15:18-the world hated Jesus as Jesus said it would hate us, so if the whole world is happy with us “Christians”, something is wrong. And James 4:4 says that anyone who is a friend of the world is an enemy of God.

Oh boy,

Grant, there are so many misconceptions, modern assumptions, and examples of circular reasoning in your post that it’s hard to know where to begin. I certainly don’t want to embarrass you so I’ll just make a couple of points.

1.) Friend, the Bible was not written yesterday. That being the case, to understand it correctly, you have to read it in the context of the original hearers. Anachronistically applying 20th century ideas to concepts first introduced thousands of years ago is, well, foolish.

2.) When you read your Bible (in an English translation) and come across the word “Hell”, you have to understand that this translation is often a broad one- covering numerous terms/ideas. The Ancient Hebrew world’s concept of “the place of the dead” is NOT the equivalent to the Christian concept of Hell. It would be naive to assume anything otherwise.

3.) When you say the Bible is easy to understand, I’m afraid that all you’re doing is running in circles. You are taking your preconceived notions and reading them INTO every book and genre of Scripture. This is NOT evidence that the Bible is easy to understand, or that your understanding is correct. This is just evidence demonstrating how easy it is to perform subjective, hermeneutical gymnastics to “see what you want to see”. But, my friend, wishing just doesn’t make it so.

Ok, Darren, since the Bible was written 2,000 years ago and there’s no possible way for me to even understand it and even if I could, there’s no way for us to apply it anyway because it’s that culture then, you and I should just throw away our Bibles.
And the only gymnastics preformed was in your post. The only thing someone can come away with from your post is that the Bible is worthless. Congratulations!

Grant, there’s no need to exaggerate. No one’s saying we should “throw away our Bibles”. What I and others are actually saying is that we should read our Bibles with greater clarity- taking into consideration as many factors as possible (cultural, literary, etc.) in order to get to the original meaning.

Yes, that might mean you might have to let go of your particular interpretations- at least some of them. But isn’t that worth it if you’re real goal is to understand what various books and genres of the Bible are actually saying?

Well instead of making the Bible fit my culture now, I’d rather just believe what it says instead of try to change it.
Romans 4:23-24 says that the old Testament was written so that centuries later people could still learn from the lessons learned back then. I think it was like 2000 years from Abraham to Paul and Paul is saying that we are still supposed to learn from it. Thats the same amount of time from the New Testament until now. Paul never said anything about culture or literacy or how our world view was going to change anything. He simply said, learn from this! Matt 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33(3 out of four is good) They all say that heaven and earth will pass away but My words shall not pass away. Gods will stand forever, regardless of culture. Jesus didn’t say were going to have to think differently about scripture because our cultures change. And the Holy Spirit is the one that helps us understand the scripture anyway. And let me ask you something, exactly what scripture are you using to back up your arguments? None thus far! It’s your human, futile, infinite brain that is telling you these things. Don’t you think that the Word of God is powerful enough to transcend cultures and still remain the same? How lame would our God be if He had to change culture to culture?Hebrews 4:12-The Word of God is living and powerful. How dare us ever doubt what it says!

Grant,
I don’t believe Darren is suggesting that God changes! He is saying that human beings and the world we live in changes. And because we change, the words and the stories we read from long ago may have different nuances or understanding for us because of the way we live and the meaning we give words today.

Take Ephesians 6:5 for example. “Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ. (NIV)

About 150 years ago, some Christians preached that God endorsed slavery! Today, we understand that in light of what we read in the rest of Scripture, God created all humans equal and in his image and slavery is wrong. Why did Paul tell slaves to obey then? Clearly this was a cultural command that is not for us today and is not God’s intent for humanity.

Bottom line my friend, the first step towards understanding truth is trying to get at the original meaning of the text as it was written to the original audience. Then we ask, “What does this mean for our life today? How does this apply to my life and how do I live it out?” God has NOT changed!! We have changed and if we want to know the truth that will set us free we must understand something about the culture and the people the text was written to.

Amen Jeannette! To read any document with out understanding the context in which it was written is to only read a part of what God has put there for us. Another example would the story of the good samaritan, while the story has some meaning apart from context, its power explodes when understood within the context of the day.

We’re looking forward to having Brian with us in Charlotte, NC, February 1-2! If you’re anywhere in NC, SC, GA, or VA, I hope you’ll consider coming to Charlotte. Details are at www.deepshift.org/charlotte and there’s a $20 off discount code available through the Charlotte Emergent cohort (just shoot me an email ;-)

The emerging church movement, teaches an extremely liberal/progressive/seeker sensitive social gospel that is meant to tickle people’s ears. Rick Warren, Brian Mclaren, Doug Pagitt, Tony Campolo, ROb BEll, to name a few are all part of this ecumenical drive to reinterpret the Bible. They all need to repent of this false doctrine and teaching. They encourage ecumenicalism of all religions and this is why they are so well liked in the world, but they have so much division with many Born Again Christians. If anyone wants to know more about this emerging church heresy and the damage it is doing to the Body of Christ, go to www.understandthetimes.org, as well as www.apprising.org.

To the person labeling himself “Sound Doctrine”:

Your rhetoric rings more like a clanging gong. We’re familiar with these resources you would direct us to. Believe me, we’re not fooled.

It is your perspective that is clearly driven by an agenda- an agenda to re-interpret historical Christianity through the narrow lens of a modernistic, hyper-conservative, hyper-truncated gospel.

Keep signaling the alarm if it makes you feel any better. But history is not on your side. And the more you cry out the more you will be regarded like the boy who cried wolf.

Perhaps you are sincere. But, as has been said before, one can be wholly sincere yet sincerely wrong.

I would encourage all to read a little bit of Karl Rahner and Hayes’”Introduction to Biblical Interpretation” . The Bible is not able to be read from a 21st century perspective. A close reading of it reveals many faults. The English translation is horrible. The way in which Americans read the bible is very disturbing. The year 313 has been a down fall for the church and will continue to be. I have not read Brian’s book, but have glanced at it and set it down. Just as i do with the Message translation. I read into the bible my own interpretation. My own world…it is reader-response criticism. Just as we all do. I can justify the murder of another through the bible and i can also justify the mass killing of an entire nation in the name of God if i take it literally…we have to find away around this. i think one exists and has been found but fundamentalism extremists would hang the theologians if they would actually say what they think.

John,

I think Brian would sympathize with your concern that we not read our contemporary beliefs INTO ancient texts. However, in EMC, Brian is very careful to consider the various biblical texts in light of the earliest translations and original cultural context to gain an understanding of what those texts meant TO THE ORIGINAL HEARERS. This is essential.

By the way, while postmodern sensibilities have helped us to understand that all of us interpret with a somewhat subjective lens, I don’t think we have to resort to assuming that reader response criticism is all there is. Reader Response Criticism is actually one thrust within recent biblical studies developments. Reader Response takes the subjectivity of the reader to an extreme; actually saying that what the text originally meant doesn’t matter at all- all that matters is what it means to you. I think many of us, Brian certainly included, would not agree with this statement. The Bible has more authority than to reinforce what we already believe.

However, I do certainly share your concerns about fundamentalist interpretations. And I’m sure Muslims feel the same about the fundamentalists who pervert the meaning of the Koran.

Darren, I’ve really appreciated reading your responses throughout this thread. You have perserverance my friend.

I wish I could imagine Western society’s potential if chaps such as Sound Doctrine even flirted with spending even an hour a week less angrily defending doctrine and instead joyfully participating in Christ’s justice, love and mercy. Participating in restoring Creation. Participating in the active, living, gospel instead of defending an idea of what it is/isn’t, who it’s for/who it’s not for.

I can almost imagine it.

Thanks for the kind words Geordan, I appreciate it.

Yes, more participation in the justice, love and mercy of Christ would be a wonderful thing! Lets hope we’re on our way to realizing this is essential to orthodox Christianity.

My view is god communicates directly with me in the activity of my life and god’s words are felt by my entire being.

Darren,

Bravo on not ripping Grant a new external opening. It shows a great deal of mercy to correct a fellow brother when he misuses scripture and theology. Thanks.

It is fine if you want to change the methods that you use to reach people but when the message changes is when you really need to look at it not through your eyes but what God says about it I would take a look at this web site and check out the video podcast or audio from this weeks service… htttp://www.rez.org

Michael,

Those of us involved in the conversation are not trying to “change the message” by fitting it into the norms of postmodern culture. We’re actually trying to shed light on the fact that – for quite some time – the gospel was “fitted” into a modern worldview- and major truncation was the result.

When you talk about “the message” rather than “the methods” changing, do you mean the message of historic Christianity, or the western gospel perspective of the last few hundred years? Because, believe me my friend, the two are not the same thing.

Peace.

Um, how is the gospel fitted to a modern worldview when a significant amount of theology and doctrine that is followed today was developed during the Rennisance during the reform movement?

The message of the bible is the same as it was 4000 years ago. It is about God trying to reconcile himself to a sinfull mankind. The message did not change when cultures changed. God did not decide to soften his image of being wrathfull and vengant because that was so like 2000 years ago and he needed to get with the times.

Are we really trying to shed light on the truth, or are we watering it down to win converts?

Jesus said “I am the way, the truth, and the light. No one comes to the father except through me.” Do we need to reinterpert the bible because the word “comes” is totally different than what it was 2000 years ago? And he probably meant something different by the word “father” than what most modern Christians would interpert.

You see, I can make up any world view that I want and interpert the bible according to that because that is correct by post modern standards. You can’t question my experience! I can fit the gospel into any world view that I want to!

How can we find truth by denying that any exists?

Rabbit,

I think you’re seeing the whole thing upside down. No one’s suggesting it was God who decided to soften his image. We’re saying human beings shifted over time in their perception of the nature of an unchanging God. And yes, this shift is certainly evidenced in Scripture.

I’m not sure where the disconnect lies with you. Unless you hold to some sort of extreme dictation theory of Scripture- as if God told each writer exactly what to say and how to say it- with none of their own personality and cultural heritage mixing in. Of course such a view is more typical of a Muslim view of the Koran than it is of a historically Christian view of the Bible.

Interesting book. I like Brian’s questions, his sincere search for answers and his love for unity. that in mind, I think it would be better for us, and more encouraging for him, if we leave our minor differences out and just read his book for what it is: a call to act, a call to love people and a call to respond to Jesus. I don’t necessarily agree with everything he says, but I take away what I can and hope I can act on it. Ultimately, we approach the Bible with presuppositions and we do the same with Brian’s work. In other words, this book, to me, seemed much less about orthodoxy and much more about orthopraxy and it, in large part, accomplished its purpose.

I finished reading “A New Kind of Christian” and now am reading “Generous Orthodoxy”. Well, since the first book of Mclaren, I am still thinking. Yes, I agree with many systems and beliefs that we need to change. However, I am still thinking on some areas because they are really disturbing to my understanding as I have been warned in the introduction of the book. Well, I am also thinking, while trying to bring about a change, are we also prostesting protestants? Thanks to Brian Mclaren, for the thought provoking books. I am on the look out for another book.

With all sincerity I would like to ask someone who has read Mclaren’s new book, how different are his ideas from that of Liberation Theology formed in the 1960’s?

Webmaster - apologies! i didn’t follow up and find this discussion. (i sent an email berating lack of discussion on aspects of the current Brian McLaren tour… short take-i love his writing, hate the marketing approach and generically, fee for service gospel propagation). i’m still there, but need to apologize for improper thinking there was no place to discuss. pls forgive me…

Kathy,
i will venture half an answer—i haven’t read Everything Must Change yet (only a chapter excerpt or two, and the chapter summaries posted for discussion at Scot McKay’s Jesuscreed blog)—but have read the one just before, (Secret Teachings) and Generous Orthodoxy and Adventures in Missing the Point (with Tony Campolo).
And i’ve read some liberation theology, which really emerges more in the ‘70s and is, like emerging church… multi-dimensional, multi-faced… and not so easily categorizable.

My two favorites are both by Gustavor Gutierrez (not his best known, A Theology of Liberation, but) his book on Job, a great work of careful biblical exegesis that locates God on the side of the suffering… and We Drink From Our Own Wells, which is very Pauline and Johannine in its deep spirituality of the cross…
The L Boff’s The New Evangelism is also highly recommended.
From a global north perspective, Margaret Hebblethwaite’s book Base Communities is very good.

Up to now i haven’t felt that Brian McLaren’s often eloquent and on-point writing is very close yet to global south “liberation theology”—primarily in that the themes of suffering solidarity with the poor don’t really come through. (this may be in the new book, if so, again, apologies).
Gutierrez, though last i heard was teaching in the US, has spent most of his life as a parish priest in a very poor neighborhood of Lima, Peru.
I once spent a year working with an expat US priest working in the same metro region. His agreement in large part with the emphases of liberation theology on suffering solidarity grew out of his pastoral experience. He has written about doing emergency baptisms of infants dying of hunger because of austerity programs imposed by the International Monetary Fund on behalf of commercial bank creditors… of hard working (18 hour working day) parishioners forced to eat chicken feed because of the IMF forcing food prices up and out of range of the poor…
I could go on a long time.
The point is that there is no such thing that can be summarized as liberation theology, but the liberationist strands of theology go back to the suffering of Jesus and associate him with the suffering of the poor today.

Grace and peace,

Tim

Thank you for your thoughtful answer, Tim. You gave me some stuff to chew on.

In my mind the Gospel is about “what did you do for someone else today?” The person who needs a kind word or gesture couldn’t care less how / why or if we read the bible – and the same could probably be said for Jesus. For the record I liked Brian’s book for the simple reason that it offered another angle on how Christians can better connect with the real pressing needs of the world – which is preferable to arguing amongst ourselves.

I am confused. There is much discussion here about human understanding of god,s activity in our lives. Yes there are differences in understanding, but understanding is a human skill with many limitations and each generation and each person stuggles to put structure to their experience. When we share with one another our experiences we are just reflecting this struggle. What is it we are seeking? The way to talk of god’s kingdom or seeking to experince it. Maybe it would be better to share our changed lives rather than speculate how we think god got us here. We should leave salvation to god; the time I believe I know the way, faith will have left me.

Precious Friend,
Have You Come To The
Lord Jesus Christ On His
Terms?

Eternally Vital Issues
Concerning
The Person of Jesus
The Work of Jesus
The Terms of Jesus

These are the most important
truths that you will ever read!

THE DEITY OF CHRIST

JESUS is “GOD the Son”

Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;...”
John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word as with GOD, and the Word was GOD.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born. Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty GOD, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
John 8:24 Therefore I say to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.
John 8:58 JESUS said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

JESUS CHRIST claimed to be “GOD, made manifest in human flesh.”
THE PURITY OF JESUS

Jesus is Holy
Hebrews 4:15 “For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
II Corinthians 5:21 “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of GOD in Him.

JESUS CHRIST is absolute purity. He is without any moral contamination. As the seraphim cried, “He is Holy, Holy, Holy!”

Jesus Hates Sin
Psalms 5:5 “GOD hates ALL workers of iniquity.”

Jesus Must Judge Sin
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Sun of GOD.”
Your Sins Have Separated You From GOD

Isaiah 59:2 “But your iniquities have separated you from your GOD: and your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear.”
GOD’s Standard For Entering Into His Presence (Heaven) Is Perfect Righteousness

Matthew 5:48 “Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”

No one is going to heaven without “perfect righteousness”.

Romans 3:10 “As it is written there is none righteous, no, not one.”

The best of human righteousness is worthless in GOD’s presence. There is a righteousness that we do not have and that we desperately need.

No person can meet GOD’s standard of perfect righteousness, in and of himself!

The Sinfulness of Man
All people who are without Christ are condemned sinners before His Righteous standard.

WHAT IS SIN?
Going Your Own Way
Isaiah 53:6 “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way:”
1.The failure to meet GOD’s perfect standard.
2.The failure to obey GOD’s commandments perfectly.
3.The failure to love GOD with ALL of your heart.
4.The failure to have JESUS as the chef object of your devotion, the chief source of your delight.
5.Living a self-centered, self-directed, and self-pleasing life; instead of fulfilling the purpose for which you were created, by living a CHRIST-centered, CHRIST-directed, and CHRIST-pleasing life.
Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of GOD.”
James 2:10 “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.”
Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of GOD is eternal life in CHRIST JESUS our LORD.”
THE SALVATION OF JESUS
Jesus Is The Only Saviour OF Sinners

There is Good News! There is a Savior, a Redeemer, a Deliverer.

Acts 4:12 “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
The message of the cross is the “ONLY HOPE” for your salvation, redemption and deliverance.

II Corinthians 5:21 “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
1.The Father poured out His just wrath on His sinless Son; so He can pour out His mercy on every sinner who will repent and believe on the LORD JESUS.
2.The Father treated JESUS as if He had lived my sinful life; so that He could treat me as if I had lived JESUS’ holy life.
John14:6 “JESUS said, ‘I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.’”

You must realize that JESUS CHRIST is the only One who can save you from the penalty and the power of sin.
The Lordship Of Jesus

You cannot enjoy the blessings of the cross, unless you are willing to bow to the crown of His LORDSHIP.

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth the LORD JESUS and believe in your heart that GOD raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Romans 10:13 “For whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

Salvation is a commitment of the one’s life to JESUS as LORD. You muss confess JESUS CHRIST as you personal LORD.
1.You must acknowledge JESUS CHRIST as your personal LORD.
2.You must be willing to abdicate the throne of your life.
3.You must be willing to adhere to a new ruler;

There must be a deep personal conviction that results in a deep personal commitment to JESUS CHRIST as your own personal LORD. You must be willing to come under guided control of a new Master.
The Terms Of JESUS CHRIST
I
What are Jesus’ terms to a saving relationship with Him?

First Term, Repentance
Mark 1:15 “The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of GOD is at hand, Repent, and believe in the Gospel.”
Acts 3:19a “Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out.”
Acts 17:30b “GOD commands all men everywhere to Repent.”
Luke 13:3 “I tell you no but unless you Repent you will all likewise perish.”

By GOD’s grace, you must be willing to make a supernatural “U-turn” in your life. Repentance is a supernatural change of heart and life; a new life of denying self and serving JESUS as LORD! Without genuine BIBLE repentance, there is no genuine BIBLE salvation

We learn there truths in Mark 8:34-37.
“When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, ‘Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?’”
The Terms of Jesus
II

Second Term, Saving Faith
What is Saving Faith? A gift of GOD’s grace that enables you to place your trust and reliance on JESUS as your LORD and REDEEMER.

Acts 16:31 “So they said believe on the LORD JESUS CHRIST, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Romans 10:10a “For with the heart one believes unto righteousness.”

YOU MUST PLACE YOUR FAITH IN HIS PERSON

YOU MUST PLACE YOUR FAITH IN HIS PAYMENT TO SAVE YOUR SOUL.

YOU MUST FORSAKE ALL OF YOUR TRUST IN YOURSELF FOR SALVATION. YOU MUST COMMIT YOUR LIFE TO JESUS ALONE.

YOU MUST COMMIT YOUR LIFE TO JESUS AS YOUR HOLY LORD GOD.
THE JUSTICE & JUDGMENT OF
JESUS CHRIST

“Jesus Is The Final Judge”
Acts 17:31 “GOD has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom he has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Hebrews 9:27 “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.”

II Thessalonians 1:7-8 “And to hive you who are troubled rest with us then the LORD JESUS is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know GOD, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our LORD JESUS CHRIST.”
1.If you never cast your life on the mercy of the LORD JESUS you will face the unwavering justice of Judge JESUS.
2.If you never submit to JESUS as LORD in salvation, You will confess JESUS as LORD in damnation.”
3.The one who could have been your LORD and SAVIOR will be your Judge.
4.Your life will be judged by the ten commandments of GOD.

The evidence of your thousands of sins will be overwhelming!
1.Every unclean thought.
2.Every impure motive.
3.Every idle word.
4.Every selfish action.

There Are Only Two Alternatives
1.Repent and Believe the Gospel.
2.Continue in your own way of living, heading for eternal damnation.

There Are Only Two Options
1.Confess JESUS CHRIST as you LORD and SAVIOR
2.Reject JESUS CHRIST, and die in your sins.
Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter by the narrow gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it, because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few that find it.”

I urge you to
REPENT
AND
BELIEVE
the GOSPEL.

II Corinthians 6:2 “For He says ‘In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you. Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.”

Hebrews :7-8 “Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: ‘Today, if you will hear his voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of the trial in the wilderness,...”

This is like clash of the Titans. Modern Christianity v Post Modern Christianity. Quite entertaining if you ask me. Bottom line for me is if we are saved by faith alone which is stated over and over in scripture, then why is that the modernists act like we have to pass a theological test before Jesus will let us into heaven?

Mike Anderson
I wonder how Jesus’ words in Matthew 25 fit into your schematic of Eternal Salvation, Faith, and Righteousness.

v31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Seems this might complicate things a bit…?

“In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.”

Here is a link to an article that I think would do both sides good. For the doctrinal person and for the narrative person. You might have to do a trial subscription to read it but it is free so why not.

http://www.modernreformation.org/default.php?page=articledisplay&var1=ArtRead&var2=910&var3=issuedisplay&var4=ArtRead&var5=98

You need the Holy Ghost!

I just got done with “Everything Must Change.”

I don’t agree with everyting Brian Says I agree with most of it.

My reading a lot of Post here, I can see why younger generation does not even want to step into a Church.

I work in a call center. I am 45 and work with a lot of 20-30 year old. I know how many of them feel about Christian Faith and Church.

One thing I like about Brian and his Book is address what issue I see on my job with younger generation who is getting more bold about expressing how much they don’t like the Christian “right.”

As Christian we got to comfortable in our Christian world, Christian Media and Christian Lives. Why do we all fight about things that really in the end don’t matter?

My Pastor is using a sermon series on the Brian book series.

I was able to use a lot of it and incorporate to witness about the Gospel of Jesus to an increasing hostile younger generation toward Christianity.

My heart pour out for this “Call center” Generation who need guidance now more than ever. They need to know love for many of them never seen any loyal or love shown to them. We can see the results of the current system. Brian has it right to say it is a suicided machine.

I work for one of the most politically correct diversified work places so I have to be very careful on how I express my faith.

The Younger generation mostly come from broken families who bought in the system by maxing out their credit and trying to get rich. In the end it left the Children behind many who were raised in the Church.

5 weeks ago I left my Church after the Pastor told the congregation that those who don’t Tithe are Thieves. The Church is mostly on Social Security and very poor. I am not poor but found that behavior very shameless but now repeated though out “Christian” world.

It give great power to the enemies of the Gospel.

I think his book show us we must focus on more than just a few issues.

How can you show anyone the right way if they won’t even step in a Church or even listen to the Gospel?

People need to see the Bible not being whipped by it.

It seems to me that people here suggesting we cannot have any certainty about knowledge. If that is true we cannot have certainty of any knowledge including knowledge of God. If we cannot have any certainty about God then we cannot know god exists, because if we affirm God exists then we are affirming a certainty about God, and this we have already decided we cannot have because we cannot have certainty on anything.

It seems to me that people here suggesting we cannot have any certainty about knowledge. If that is true we cannot have certainty of any knowledge including knowledge of God. If we cannot have any certainty about God then we cannot know god exists, because if we affirm God exists then we are affirming a certainty about God, and this we have already decided we cannot have because we cannot have certainty on anything.

Sorry i put 2 similer comments in 2 minutes apart, but I had to change my conclusion…I can publically repudiate my faith tht easily.

Sorry i put 2 similer comments in 2 minutes apart, but I had to change my conclusion…I cant publically repudiate my faith tht easily.

fabulous dialog…I think this is something McLaren wants and enjoys. I do find one thing interesting. I come from a fundamentalist evangelical background. Why is it that the fundamentalists sound so angry here. A lot of what the Bells, Len Sweets, McLarens, etc have shown me is a new joy in this amazing story we are a part of. I chuckle when I see somewhat post scripture after scripture and say ‘this is what it says!’ I used to be that person. I believe in truth and scripture and in Christ’s redeeming of all of creation…which leads me to care about the environment as well(but that’s another story)...and I believe there is a ‘hell’ and a ‘heaven’ but I don’t pretend to ‘know’ what that will be like. I think it may be ‘this’ and others think it may be ‘that.’ In this conversation, I love what Leonard Sweet says, ‘the best I will ever do is know in part.” that sums it up for me. I want to know more, I hunger to know more and don’t pretend to know ‘it.’ God Bless and I love the conversation.

Wow. I have just gone through a litany of blogging opinions all in the name of ‘conversation’. The Moderns are misconceived as ignorant and traditionalist. The post-moderns are misconceived as blinded and too culturally immersed. Jesus has His arms stretched out to each saying come to the Cross.

Emergents… please note that the ‘conversation’ is just that – a conversation. Nothing more. There is a tone of intellectual pride associated with many of your comments. It’s about abiding in Christ, not portraying oneself in a culturally acceptable pseudo-intellectual front because you like McLaren’s ideas. Heresy has been around as long as the Church – as has orthodoxy. Remember, it’s not just your soul in jeopardy, it’s others you are leading down that same path. Step out of your cultural-centric bias and go one on one with God. Just because people have questioned biblical intrepretation since the early church doesn’t set a historical precedent that equates to Orthodoxy. Christ was orthodox in His fulfillment of scripture. It’s your life, it’s your eternity. It’s Christ who died for you. Stop hiding behind a quasi-intellectual argument that deems itself a ‘conversation’ and emerge into the Light that Christ has for you. COME INTO THE SON!

Now that I re-read this, it’s apparent to me that I too have been sucked into the trap. The problem with the emergent movement is what they deem the solution to be – not the conversation so much, but the arena.

Robbie, The fact that it is other souls in jeopardy is, in my opinion, part of what has spurred the ‘emergent’ movement. The ‘conversation’ as you put it is a huge part of the solution. I am not sure what is meant by the arena. I just know that doubts and questions for years have been swept aside and under the rug, not to be asked and therefore believed to no longer exist. Part of the conversation is to say, ‘the doubts are here, let’s talk about them.’ I don’t think anyone is hiding behind a conversation, I think many are coming out from hiding behind pushed aside questions, doubts, and fears. Most importantly I think is the focus on ‘life’ as opposed to eternity. I have watched the church as it sits like a waiting room for heaven. ‘Hang on to these truths, and we’ll get there!’ Is anything more self serving? I am saved to make s difference here, now. I was not created to ‘make it to heave.’ I was created to serve the Risen Christ here, by following the single most important commandment…’love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, love your neighbor as yourself.’ We are to fulfill all of that. I don’t see the ‘hiding’ as you put it. I see it more as coming out from ‘hiding.’ But I’m just moving along here trying to follow ‘the way’ with the rest of us. I would like to know what ‘the trap’ is and what ‘the arena’ is.

This stuff is strange, and we’ve all seen it before – folks who call Jesus Lord and Savior, arguing about who does it better.

Jesus taught us to Love God with all our hearts, mind, and soul. The second command, to love my neighbor as myself, is the result of my obedience to the first.

Jesus is God, the Man who showed us the truth of the world He created, and the turn it had taken. He offered us peace, and placed all the blame on His own shoulders – even though it is ours. To look at Christ’s own first commandment in this light – Love Jesus with all your heart, all your mind, and all your soul.

The church has gone through many changes, and although deliveries of Jesus’ message must change to connect with different people, the message remains the same – Salvation is found in Christ crucified. What did Paul say? – Preach the Word.

Even Francis of Assisi would agree with both the Traditional and Emergent viewpoints. He summed up both sides of the coin when he said (paraphrase), “Preach the Gospel of Jesus always, and when necessary, use words.”

Quarrels within the Church make non-believers not want to go to any church. Let us find common ground, and redirect our energies to completing Christ’s commission to us in both word and deed.

Hi! Can anyone help me in my processing? I went to one of the Everything Must Change events for a few of the sessions, and Brian made the following statements. Just trying to get some clarity on them. He mentioned being part of the “redemption of the world” and prayed about “all nations and races may serve God in harmony”. So to clarify, what Brian is discussing is that all will be part of the kingdom of God, that there will be no separation of sinners from God? Kind of like we are all in the same boat? So sorry if this has been asked before, and forgive my ignorance, I have not read any of his books yet. Also, with the concepts of the global crises, Brian was talking about us being in danger as humans, creatures and our planet. So is the sense that if we don’t do something about it, God’s kingdom won’t come? Sorry for the elementary questions, but I am just trying to get my head around things. I should have been in more of the sessions.

I don’t think that Jesus is God. I don’t think that the several books of the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures came from God directly as a dictation.
But I think there is a Great Spirit behind the Universe, and that Spirit can fill the human hearts to unite with it. That’s why I think every religious tradition could be inspirational to find the way, which should be not always the same to everyone , but all lead to the Great Spirit.
So no doctrines, rather compassion and mercy.

thinkingthingsthrough,

I just got finished reading Brian book” “A New Kind of Christian.” It gave me a greater insight into Brian thoughts in “Everything Must Change.”

I am glad I found the emergents and our Pastor and Church is going Emergent.

I still believe in Heaven and Hell. I still belive in Bibicial View of Sexual Morality and Abortion. I don’t belive in Evolution but in Bibicla view of Creation.

I do carry alternative view Main Line Fundementalist Churches will find me a Heritic.

My soul hurts for the younger generation and why are they are not going to Church or show an intrest in a relationship with God?

Joel you hit the nail on the head! We are studinng ‘Every Thing Must Change” and many Christian are expressing Doubts, fears and repenting! Yes repenting!

The best prayer I ever heard was 4 weeks ago. Our Pastor was praying and in the prayer,” WE neglegted the poor and those who are hurting in the Christian Church and FOCUS ON ISSUE IN THE LONG RUN DON’T EVEN MATTER.” It was the most humble prayer I heard in 12 years!

I norice our members love coming to Church and I have never been happier with my walk with Christ!

The thing is that everybody has a relationship with God, at least as a prodigal Son or Daughter. Jesus did not talk about creationism or evolutionism but the judgement day, when the selection criteria of the sheeps is the following:
feed the hungry, quench the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned. Period. No other conditions. No doctrines, no beliefs, no creeds and other bla-bla-bla.
Just open your heart, and open your mind. You should not worship Jesus but follow him.

First, Joska. You are very misguided in your assertions. Sounds ominously like the Watchtower.

Second, I’m starting to wonder if the ‘Emergent’ movement (please forgive me for labelling) has inadverntently found an identity in their continuous attempts to not have an identity. It appears that there is also nothing positive that has arisen from Modernity. It may do you all well to read D.A. Carson’s, “BECOMING CONVERSANT WITH THE EMERGING CHURCH”. That is if this is the one taboo that is not allowed in the ‘conversation’ as it is too close to the hackles of modernity. And if this is the case, you are that to which you profess to denounce.

Joska…..
========
joska lucc Apr 22, 02:10 AM
Jesus did not talk about creationism or evolutionism but the judgement day,
??? Gen. 1:1 , Mark 13:19 ???
=================
when the selection criteria of the sheeps is the following:
feed the hungry, quench the thirsty, clothe the naked, visit the imprisoned. Period. No other conditions. No doctrines, no beliefs, no creeds and other bla-bla-bla.

??? John 3:36, Gal. 2:16, Matt. 28:20 ????
================
Just open your heart, and open your mind. You should not worship Jesus but follow him.
??? John 4:22-26 ????
==================
wm

Robbie, I was a Jehovah’s Witness for 10 years. Joska does not sound anything like the Watchtower.

What Jesus did, it is possible to everyone. In his life You can see the limit of the human being. There is no limit.
The rebirth is a spiritual event.
You are able to become a Son of God. I think it is possible. It is our duty, to try it.
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

I have read it from Philip:
........................
The New Testament makes it abundantly clear, in my opinion, that we are destined to spend eternity on EARTH in resurrected BODIES. Not as spirits in some ethereal Heaven. I think it is a very dangerous thing to replace the Biblical faith in New Creation and Resurrection with a faith in some kind of Gnostic escapism (i.e. – the so-called “rapture of the Church”).
.........................
I think this above is completely wrong.
You should read what Apostle Paul said about the resurrection in the commonly known 15th chapter of the 1 Cor.
When we die, we lose our bodies which were taken from the earth as it will be given back to the earth. In the resurrection the soul will get a new dress which will be similar to the angels. This is the transformation. The Kingdom of God is spiritual, you can not enter it only without your body.
There is no eternal resurrection in the physical body, however it is possible temporarily. Lazarus had died again in his life after his resurrection, as well as the youngster from Nain, or the daughter of Jairus, or Eutichus etc.
Even the Lord Jesus Christ after his resurrection had to enter the Heaven without his physical body, when his body was transformed from material to spiritual, which is called ascension, as it happend on Henoch,Elijah, and probably Moses and others. You can enter the gate of the Heaven through two doors: death or ascension, both mean lossing the body.
There is no eternity on or in the earth, it belongs the the Heaven which is a spiritual realm of God, who is spirit.

It’s funny how things are so quick to revert back to what seems so natural. This dialog has taken quite a turn. Bringing it back, if I may, I was raised in a church where questions were swept away, ignored, or answered with all to often unsatisfactory answers that assumed much and took much for granted. My faith in Christ has only grown as I have learned to question God as Moses did at the burning bush, as Abraham did before He destroyed Sodomm and Gomorah(sp?) or dare I say it as Christ did in the garden and on the cross. (Sweet) ‘the best I will ever do is know in part.’ I will strive to learn more and grow deeper…my questioning is a huge part of that process. I thank God for it.

To Grant

from items 21 to 26

Sounds like you are having a good conversation. Too bad coversations don’t change us.

I just know when I die I will be with Jesus as he promised. It does not make a difference if I am in Heaven or sleeep until I am resurrected.

I would love Jesus if even if there was no reward at the end of the day for I love him, not what he can do for me.

I haven’t had time to read all of the posts, but i am at work and must attend to that task. First off, to be fair, I must explain—that to the liberals I am a fundamentalist and to the fundamentalists I am liberal. I like to consider myself a moderate. I do acknowledge that post-modernity is a time period and not necessarily a thought process or even a worldview. I grew up in south orange county and was an Art major in Los Angeles for college (this really shaped my thought process). I do think we should “test all things, cling to what is good & reject what is evil.” I do not see a problem with questioning the establishment or the norm, in fact, I think that is how improvements are made. However we need to do so with rules and logic, resonating off of others in order to find the proper pitch. In the words of Ben Stein, Darren – “I do bow to your superior knowledge.” One thing that you did say, caught me as strange. You made an argument against someone using 1600 years as a basis. Something along the lines of “your idea of evangelical is new so it must be false.” Perhaps you were playing the devil’s advocate in order to get the person to rethink their stance, but i did want to point out the faulty logic. By the same logic Gallileo and Columbus would have submitted to their authorities and not branched out to make 2 of the greatest discoveries of mankind. It is also self-refuting, because you are proposing a “new idea” albeit an old one first, but now it is new. Could you clarify your argument? Thanks in advance.
Looking forward to engaging in proper arguments and seeking truth in this community.

You wrote it:
“I just know when I die I will be with Jesus as he promised. It does not make a difference if I am in Heaven or sleeep until I am resurrected.
I would love Jesus if even if there was no reward at the end of the day for I love him, not what he can do for me.”
I agree. But:
John 6.63
“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing.”
And there is the question, who loves Jesus?
The man / woman who loves his/her enemies, disparagers and persecutors as himself/herself, who sacrifices a lot sometimes when it is needed even the life for others and the common good, who thinks I am not worthy enough to be rewarded.
So I found your answer profoundly right, with some clarification.
Nothing is more important than our desire to go to Jesus, but it means wwe have to treat well the poor, the needy, the sad, the grieving etc.

If the word is not the only rule for living a life of Godliness, then the word is not authoritative to form your world view. Any other view equal to the word, nullifies the word.